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Everything regarding Dither

Cary · 17 · 12422
 

Offline Cary

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Perhaps it would be good to discuss this in detail.  All comments are welcome.

I'll start-
Dither is adding 'noise' to a signal when reducing word length.  It should be the very last step before the final product, if required.

Dither is not required unless the working file is of a higher resolution that the target file - dithering a 24 bit file down to 16 bit for CD audio.

I am hoping that anyone with experience and or knowledge on this subject will chime in.

Questions I hope will be addressed in this thread:
1.  Why do I 'Need" to dither?
2.  Can we hear the difference between dithered and non-dithered truncated wave forms?
3.  Why are there so many different models of dither?
Cary


Offline NickT

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The main place I hear it, if I hear it at all, is in reverb tails and fade outs. Without using a good algorithm, the noise is just kinda rough or ugly.

Of course I barely hear crickets anymore, so what do I know.  :D

Nick



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Offline Cary

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The main place I hear it, if I hear it at all, is in reverb tails and fade outs...


Not that I'm running out of work to do, but perhaps it would be nice to put up some before and after.
Interested?
Cary


Offline Studioplayer

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Any examples and any explainations would be good. Personally I find it all very interesting and good knowledge to have especially since I'll be moving to 24 bit very soon.  :)

Dave


Offline Cary

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The main place I hear it, if I hear it at all, is in reverb tails and fade outs. Without using a good algorithm, the noise is just kinda rough or ugly.

Of course I barely hear crickets anymore, so what do I know.  :D

Nick


You know, the artifacts that are produced by a non-dithered truncated waveform should be audible even during the loud sections of the music.

Cary


Offline NickT

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The main place I hear it, if I hear it at all, is in reverb tails and fade outs. Without using a good algorithm, the noise is just kinda rough or ugly.

Of course I barely hear crickets anymore, so what do I know.  :D

Nick


You know, the artifacts that are produced by a non-dithered truncated waveform should be audible even during the loud sections of the music.



And they probably are to those with good hearing. Of course that is assuming that the source tracks doesn't have problems or noise of it's own! I could here it if it gets above the 4k -10db noise floor in my head!  ::)
NickT

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Offline Cary

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I think you'll hear it even if your hearing is bad.  It's like, once you know what it is you're hearing, it becomes all the more noticeable.

I recently read the best article regarding dither.  It explained it in terms which I could easily understand.  The light bulb in the article was this; when you truncate a 24 bit file down to 16 bit (without dither) you end up with very pronounced steps in place of curves.  It's the staircase looking waveform.  Anyway, those square edges produce harmonic artifacts which were not in the original waveform.  These harmonics come off sounding like distortion or grittiness.

I am going to do some audio test files and put them up here as examples.  Hopefully, they will provide some insight.
Cary



Offline Tacman7

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I like the stuff I was reading here:

http://www.pcrecording.com/dither.htm

just a snippit:

The Problem:

Quantization error: Each bit represents a quantization interval - - with a discrete threshold for its amplitude range. In an analog waveform, there is an equivalent dynamic range that exists between each digital 0 and 1. When the analog signal amplitude being sampled falls between a quantization interval (each bit), the system cannot resolve the analog amplitude of the input signal and simply truncates it. The result is a square wave for each instance where the digital device cannot reconcile the difference. These square waves leave digital artifacts that do not represent any frequency in the analog waveform. This is known as quantization error.

The solution:

Dithering is a process that adds broadband noise to a digital signal. You may wonder why adding noise would make a signal sound better? It is really a trade off. The introduction of noise lessens the audibility of the digital distortion that comes from the quantization errors discussed above. In essence, low-level hiss-like noise is traded for a reduction of digital distortion.


An almost understandable analogy:

Imagine that you have a bathtub full of bubble bath. The bubbles represent the upper 16-bits of your 24-bit audio information and tower above the underlying water which represents the lower 8-bits of your signal. However, in the lower water portion there resides some audio information. You agitate that water which causes that audio information to form into bubbles which raise up into the same level as the upper 16-bits. The new bubbles bring with them some of the water that was in the lower portion but join the upper echelon nonetheless. The agitation is analogous to adding dither noise. The bubbles that form bring with it some of the noise caused by the agitation but contain primarily audio information. When you convert to 16-bit, you simply cut (drain) out the lower 8-bit (the water) and the remaining 16-bits represent your final signal. This analogy works well because as you cut out the lower 8-bits of information the overall level of the bubbles lowers significantly which is analogous to the change in dynamic range between 24-bit and 16-bit. However, all the audio information is retained within the new dynamic range.

Yea maybe


Offline Tacman7

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I don't know.

I usually take 24bit wav files into soundforge and make wma's.

I tried the mixdown of the master wav file with the dither plugin and other than a little more gain I couldn't tell the difference.

My voice was still off key. :)

I'm thinking about going back to using 48k.

The dithering might be more useful then...



Offline Gerk

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The "steps" as Cary was mentioning are the big thing.  You want to preserve the original sound wave's "shape" as closely as possible.  Without dithering you're slicing it up into bits and pieces and just dropping the bits that you don't end up using, with no modifications to the existing ones .. with dithering you are re-drawing the bits into a smoother slope by basically looking at all the "steps" and playing join the dots ;)

That's a very simplistic explanation of it, but it gets the basic idea accross.  This holds true for both doing 24bit->16bit conversions as well as 48k->44.1k conversions.

It can also be compared to colors ... take a jpeg photo with a wide range of colors, and then convvert it to a PNG of GIF with less colors (like an 8bit/256 color gif or png) and you will see the differences.  In most cases these applications will dither, in other words they will get as close as they can to the original pixel colours.  Sometimes it does a great job, sometimes it doesn't -- depending on what you are converting.  Smooth gradients are the toughest in this instance, you end up with banding.

The same holds true when dithering audio, but audio is _much_ more complicated than simple X/Y pixel data in an image (we don't get into the harmonics, distoritions, etc in this post).  Some setups do a decent job of it, some not as good.

My basic rule of thumb on this stuff ... the less dithering the better.  Dither once in the process, at the last step of mastering (with a very good plugin that does a good job of it) to eliminate the potential loss.  Some (rare cases) would argue that recording in 16bit 44.1 is the best then as you end up not having to dither anything ... but I hold out that the advantages of recording 24bit are very much worth that single dither in the end of the process.

Mark


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Yes, Mark:

Quote
My basic rule of thumb on this stuff ... the less dithering the better.  Dither once in the process, at the last step of mastering

I do believe this is the gospel according to Craig Anderton too.  :)

Rab  8)


Offline Cary

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Yes, Mark:

Quote
My basic rule of thumb on this stuff ... the less dithering the better.  Dither once in the process, at the last step of mastering

I do believe this is the gospel according to Craig Anderton too.  :)

Rab  8)

Yes, and gospel according to Bob Katz.
Cary


Offline Gerk

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Good to see they listened to my advice and got it right then :) LOL, J/K

I wish I had 1/10th of their ears instead of my tinitis :)

Mark


Offline Studioplayer

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Great explaination Mark. I'm hoping to go to 24 bit over the holidays. Time to do some upgrading. Good info.  8)

Now, can anyone tell me how to play the damn guitar!!  ;D


 

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