Musicians Collaboration Studio
How To => Production Tips and Tricks! => Topic started by: Tacman7 on October 26, 2006, 08:45:20 AM
-
I've neglected my guitar for quite a while and am trying to get a sound I like, or at least I can live with!
It seems good while I'm playing live but the playback doesn't seem the same.
I've tried different devices and also compressing the track or other plug ins.
I can get a lead sound that's ok but rythem guitar, a distorted sound, that not
muddy has eluded me.
Just wondering if anyone had any tips or tricks to try. The basic recording method that works for you.
I'm using an m-audio black box but I also have an old art sgx2000 express.
-
Ah....In search of tone! :)
It is hard to get a decent rhythm tone, at home or in the studio. What works for me is:
Using a PodXt, I find an amp model, speaker emulation and mic setup that sounds good when I jam.
Then reduce the gain to where it's almost uncomfortable. (have to work at the track more!)
I will then mult the track.
My favorite plug for guitar is the PSP vintage Warmer. But a little compression and make-up gain will work.
When I EQ, I pull back the 100hz with a q of 1-1.4 about 2 db. I also boost the 3k about the same.
I will often record the same part with different guitars and amp models and layer them and split them wide in the stereo field.
Hope that gives you a starting point!
Nick
-
Definately some things to try!
I felt like the stereo image I have is a big blob sitting in the middle of the room.
That multiple guitars spread across the stereo image is something to work with.
I like the sound the creed guitarist gets, massive yet you don't loose the rest of the band(extreme example). I like the way the guitar sounds in letdown.
-
A lot of good advise from Nick (thanks for sharing some of your secrets ;)) I'm always searching for a better rhythm tone myself, since that's my main style. For rhythm stuff on the clean side I always gravitate to the Roland Jazz Chorus amp sim (JC-120). Loads of flexibility with respect to warmth and edge. But even with that, i always end up double or triple tracking and panning apart to get a fuller sound, and like Nick, i scoop out everything below about 100 Hz. This could prove to be an interesting thread, hope you other guitar guys share some wisdom. :)
rob
-
I hope to see more posts here as well.
I echo Nick's comment about less gain when recording. Use less distortion than you would use during a live gig.
Other than that, I'm not much help here because I do everything possible to avoid using a guitar amp sim when I record. I do understand why POd's and the like are so popular - you can get very close without having to spend mucho bucks, plus it's much easier to deal with late night recording sessions. However, I firmly believe that a properly recorded amplifier will beat out a simulator.
-
I agree Cary -
I would love to mic up my Trace Elliot 50 watt Speedtwin amp into my 2X12 celestion vintage 30s bottom.
But I would soon be single and kicked out of my townehome! LOL >:D
Guitar rig, Amplitube, Rock Amp Legends are all good also.
Here is a free one to play with:
http://frettedsynth.asseca.com/ampsims.html
Nick
-
When I first started the online collaboration thing, I tried to mic some of my amps.
I remember the first time I set up my Carvin (the big monster), and hit a few notes to warm up. The china tried to walk out of the cabinet. Kathy looked at me seriously. And, very quietly said four meaningful words... "Make that go away!"
The studio is in an out building now. But, I haven't ever gone back to mic'ing. I need to, one of these days. But, in truth, it sure is simpler just to pick up what's already plugged in and queued up, twist a couple of knobs. And, record away, without worrying about fans, telephones, dogs, or cussin' when the thing plays the wrong note (funny how they'll do that!)
BW@
-
You might want to look up Toneport by Line 6. It's an amazing "next generation" of the PODXT. Tons of amps/cabs/mics/mic placements/efx that you can mix and match to your hearts content. You can also add a bunch of boutique amps, both for rock/blues and metal. It's not a cranked tube amp in a guitar room etc. etc. but you can definitely get a very usable tone for any style of playing. The UX1 is less than $200 CAD. I have it and also the Metal amp add-on and I'm in heaven!!! 8)
http://www.line6.com
Try recording multiple takes on multiple guitars, multiple settings on multiple amps etc. etc. etc. Mixing and matching them together will get you a full tone, regardless of the style of music.
You should really kill everything below 100Hz as has already been pointed out but even higher if you are into really heavy distorted tones. Be sure to record with full mids because you cannot add them later. Electric guitar is all about the mids... bottom end really comes from the bass guitar in a mix.
Geoff
-
Ah yes. Finding good tone. ::) Can't tell you how many nights (and years) that I've spent trying to find good tones. That's all I was doing last night. As the guys above, what I have learned is that you have to back off the gain more than what you would normally use live. Recording is much more sensitive. It pick ups everything that you could easily get away with when playing live. I'll always tweak my sound to suit for any particular song. Play the song, jam away and tweak the tone till you get what you like. What you hear is what you get. It really takes a lot of experimenting. Personally I like crunchy/grungy type of sounds to clean tones. I'm using a Roland GT-6 for direct stuff. It has a lot of great sounds but requires a lot of work getting good patches. I would love to get a PodXT as well. I can't speak for the Pod or other amp sims but I imagine it would be the same in that I would not use the factory presets. Not sure who sets those up but they are never very good for recording let alone playing through an amp. Make your own tones. Let your ears be the judge. It takes a lot of fine tuning. The guitar can make a difference as well. My Strat may sound good on a particular patch but doesn't work well with my Tele. I have different patches for both guitars. Different again for my acoustic. Another thing to watch for is any pickup hum. I find when I use certain amp sims or compressors it enhances noise. ( I thought compressors would take away noise??). My Tele with single coil pickups is the hardest to record just for that reason. Backing off my volume pot on the guitar fixes it some but it also flattens out the sound a bit. Also stay away from the monitor of course. I also do the same in multi-tracking, hard-panning & layering. I will get the best tone I can, record and eq a bit afterwards.
I'm also recording my amp. Still experimenting a lot and have yet to post a song with it but I have noticed a big difference. It really is a great way to go. Much greater warmth and for some reason, and I don't know why but you can get much more volume out of it. My recorded wav file can be small and tight but it cuts through the music and sounds big. I'm sure there's a technical reason for it. The downfall is amp buzz. The upside is feedback and all that great natural stuff. As far as I know most pro studios will mic the amps. I would bet Creed does. You can't simulate that sound but don't quote me on it. Fortunately I have a separate studio from the house and can record as loud as I want but.... I get lazy and just plug and play with the GT-6. ::) It's much harder getting nice recorded tones with the amp. I never use the GT6 with my amp. Just the regular stomp boxes and expression pedals. I will when I use dual amps and then I use it to color my sound behind my tube amp. Works great live.
Have fun and keep tweaking. 8)
Disclaimer... I am no pro on sound and can babble a lot. ;D
Dave
-
Dave,
Yeah, the never-ending saga that is finding "that" guitar tone... too many variables in there methinks... :)
Yer amp sounds better 'cause the speaker is moving air. I have a Marshall AVT50, an SM57 and a LDC that I would love to be able to crank and record everything. Family, neighbours, etc. etc. just don't allow it unfortunatley.
My mic'd up Marshall cannot be duplicated with my Toneport but I can def get as close as I need to get for what I am doing. Actually, getting a good recorded tone from your amp is easier than you think - however, it does require a little experimentation. A slight adjustment to the mike can make a huge difference to yer tone.
Most pros will record with not just one amp but many amps. But..., some are using POD/VAmp's etc. in their studios for various reasons/applications.
I do agree with Cary that a well-recorded mic'd amp is hard to beat...
Geoff
** Oh yeah, I'm babbling as well... ;D
-
Awesome, this is just what I've been looking for :D I'll have to read this as soon as I get time. :D
Dan.
-
Geoff
Actually once the amp and mic are set up it's pretty easy. I should have said that I feel a bit limited with my sounds since I can only use what pedals I have. I have a Rat, Digital Delay, Vox Wah & Tremolo. With the GT6 it gives me a huge selection of distortion pedals. Too much fun and variety. The GT6 does not work well with tube amps. Might as well go direct. I have heard the 'moving air' explaination before but just forgot. There really is a big difference in sound and I would like to mic the amp more often. I'm not sure what you mean about full mids though. I was going through some patches last night and had to back off on the mids to get rid of the hollowness. ???
Dave
-
Geoff
Actually once the amp and mic are set up it's pretty easy. I should have said that I feel a bit limited with my sounds since I can only use what pedals I have. I have a Rat, Digital Delay, Vox Wah & Tremolo. With the GT6 it gives me a huge selection of distortion pedals. Too much fun and variety. The GT6 does not work well with tube amps. Might as well go direct. I have heard the 'moving air' explaination before but just forgot. There really is a big difference in sound and I would like to mic the amp more often. I'm not sure what you mean about full mids though. I was going through some patches last night and had to back off on the mids to get rid of the hollowness. ???
Dave
Too many choices does make it more difficult sometimes - we have too many choices in life already right??? ;)
The mids are everything to the guitar when recording. If you don't have any mids, the only thing left is top and bottom ends. In a mix, the top end of the guitar sounds gets sucked up by vox (mostly) and cymbals and the bottom end gets eaten up by the bass/kick. What's left? Mids. That's where the guitar sits. If you don't record your guitar with mids, there's nothing left but a big hole. You may have to pull the mids down in the mix but it's better to record with them - you can always take them out but you can't add them after the fact.
When I first started recording, I basically had the same setup as I do to play live - more of a scooped sound - very little midrange, tons of bottom and some top. Took me a long time to figure out why I couldn't get the guitar to sit well in a mix. I finally listened to what I was being told about the mids by a good pal and whamo! All of a sudden, my guitar came through in the mix.
Now, I kinda hate that really scooped sound but prefer a little more midrange when playing live. Either way, the mids are the way to go.
Geoff
-
Hey Geoff, I use a toneport UX1, I just got it, what sort of Amp models etc. do you like? What ones sound good in your opinion? When I get the time I'm going to have to put some of this really useful tips in to action :)
-
Hey Geoff, I use a toneport UX1, I just got it, what sort of Amp models etc. do you like? What ones sound good in your opinion? When I get the time I'm going to have to put some of this really useful tips in to action :)
Doozer,
Well, the Toneport ships with many good amp model IMO. I have the added-on Metal pack, so forgive me if I can't remember all the ones' that were shipped with it.
I guess it really depends on what music you are into and what tone you like. I play mostly hard rock/metal, so I have a pretty heavily distorted guitar sound. I like the Brit J-800, which is the Marshall JCM800 (I'm a Marshall guy... ;D ), the Solo 100 Soldano emulation, and the Line 6 Spinal Puppet. For clean sounds, that JC-120 based on Roland Jazz Chorus is super clean, if that's what you are looking for. I see they have added an emulation based on the Orange A30 amp - don't know what that sounds like. I use the Metal boutique amps for most of my recording now but the ones above will yield good results out of the box. I don't use any efx when recording, so you're on your own there. I would suggest using the Noise Gate tho...
You definitely want to try different cabs/mics/mic placements with each of the amps. Believe it or not, I've had the Toneport for almost a year now and I'm still testing different combinations.
Have fun with it too - it's great trying new and interesting sounds!!! :)
-
Hey Geoff, I use a toneport UX1, I just got it, what sort of Amp models etc. do you like? What ones sound good in your opinion? When I get the time I'm going to have to put some of this really useful tips in to action :)
Doozer,
Well, the Toneport ships with many good amp model IMO. I have the added-on Metal pack, so forgive me if I can't remember all the ones' that were shipped with it.
I guess it really depends on what music you are into and what tone you like. I play mostly hard rock/metal, so I have a pretty heavily distorted guitar sound. I like the Brit J-800, which is the Marshall JCM800 (I'm a Marshall guy... ;D ), the Solo 100 Soldano emulation, and the Line 6 Spinal Puppet. For clean sounds, that JC-120 based on Roland Jazz Chorus is super clean, if that's what you are looking for. I see they have added an emulation based on the Orange A30 amp - don't know what that sounds like. I use the Metal boutique amps for most of my recording now but the ones above will yield good results out of the box. I don't use any efx when recording, so you're on your own there. I would suggest using the Noise Gate tho...
You definitely want to try different cabs/mics/mic placements with each of the amps. Believe it or not, I've had the Toneport for almost a year now and I'm still testing different combinations.
Have fun with it too - it's great trying new and interesting sounds!!! :)
Cool, thanks for the tips. I'm not really a Marshall guy, I have a one, it's only a 30watt... but it'll be the last I get, I don't really like the distorion, IMO it's to much fuzz and not enough distinction between the notes. But I'll try your sugestions, who knows, I might like them :) Sadly I don't have that much time to play my guitar, so I don't really like spending a lot of time trying to find a good sound... It's sad but true, I guess I'll have to someday. But it's not this day...
Cheers, Dan.
-
I'll chime in here as well and agree with some comments that have been posted.
less is more!! In all aspects ... less gain, less (preferably NO) effects, less EQ.
Another thing to consider is where in the audio spectrum your track will sit. Most times this means you need a LOT of midrange. Most guitarists just learning this stuff tend to pump up bass and treble on their tracks as it makes it sound more "full". In reality this is the exact opposite of what you need once you sit the guitar into a mix of other intruments.
As a soundman over the years a lot of guitar players have asked me to tweak up their tone, or to help them do so. The first thing I typically do is turn down the bass and treble and turn up the mids. At first it might sound a bit odd to have a really midrangy sound, but also consider that it's pretty simple to add bass and treble after the fact, but adding midrange (cleanly) is another thing alltogether. You want maximum calrity and articulation of the sound at the source, whether it be from an amp, a pedal, an amp sim, or a plugin.
A good rule of thumb to learn what you need 9and don't) for this type of stuff, is don't EQ a guitar sound by itself, always fiddle with it whie playing with a mix with a lot of other sounds going on. It might help you to educate your ear as to what you want/need to get the end result. Then go back and listen to the guitar track by itself. It ay not sound killer by itself, in fact some of the best guitar tracks I've had just sit in the mix sounded kinda of aweful by themselves, but when added to all the other stuff the magic happened.
Lastly, the tone you get from a guitar, playing by itself is mostly useless to tweak up .. unless it's a part that is meant to be by itself with no accompaniment. it's all about context.
Food for thought :)
Mark
-
This is a great thread. Even after all these years of recording I really didn't know the importance of mids. I am a great culprut of having more bass & treble and practically nothing for mids. Mid tones always seemed scooped out or hollow sounding to me. I will have to play around more with the mids and see how it works. 8)
-
This is a great thread, I'm finaly finding out stuff that I keep asking about and not getting answers to :-X
My aamp only has treble and bass knobs... Dosn't have a mid. So the guys who designed it didn't do a good job there....
Cheers, Dan.
-
If you want more mid on that amp ... try turning down the bass and treble and turning up the volume :)
Mark
-
Turn the gain down!! >:(
I love gain!
But it's true. :(
It's one of my BIG faults.
Great stuff here guys! Keep the thoughts flowing.
-
If you want more mid on that amp ... try turning down the bass and treble and turning up the volume :)
Mark
Ahh, awesome :) I'll have to try that. Thanks.
Dan.
-
Great thread indeed. I agree with Mark almost a 100 percent, I can't agree on the gain, thou. There's no such thing as too much gain :D.....
I guess most of us guitar players have the same disease!!!!
P.S. Now seriously, I do agree with Mark a 100 percent.
-
I'll chime in with one more tip that often get's overlooked, specifically when you are micing up a guitar cabinet. I have always heard the complaint "That's not what my guitar sounded like when I played it!" ... but guess what, it probably did sound just like that, you just weren't listening at the right spot! :D
If you're close micing (which works pretty well most times for my usage) don't tweak up your sound to make it sound great when standing 6 feet away . . . think more in context of where the mic is. Things sound a LOT different right on the speaker cone vs. six feet away in a room. Place the mic on the speaker and try to get to another room to listen to the actual sound coming through the microphone. If you can't do that then record a bit of playing and then listen to it played back. EQ'ing and tweaking your sound for a room/your ears when listening to a cabinet live typically means very little in regards to what it will sound like close miced.
This also holds true for effects. That "little bit" of reverb to make things sound better to your ear (standing 6 feet away from the cabinet) generally sounds like a washed out wall of reverb 2 inches from the speaker cone :) The same holds true for almost any effect you add at recording time. In this day and age there's not a really good reason to add (most) effects at recording time.. once they are there you can't take them away, but it's very very easy to add the relevant effects into your mix later. An amp spring reverb or component reverb doesn't hold a feather to a nice convolution reverb plugin, and when you start mixing and matching them you _really_ notice the difference!
Mark
-
I'll chime in with one more tip that often get's overlooked, specifically when you are micing up a guitar cabinet. I have always heard the complaint "That's not what my guitar sounded like when I played it!" ... but guess what, it probably did sound just like that, you just weren't listening at the right spot! :D
If you're close micing (which works pretty well most times for my usage) don't tweak up your sound to make it sound great when standing 6 feet away . . . think more in context of where the mic is. Things sound a LOT different right on the speaker cone vs. six feet away in a room. Place the mic on the speaker and try to get to another room to listen to the actual sound coming through the microphone. If you can't do that then record a bit of playing and then listen to it played back. EQ'ing and tweaking your sound for a room/your ears when listening to a cabinet live typically means very little in regards to what it will sound like close miced.
This also holds true for effects. That "little bit" of reverb to make things sound better to your ear (standing 6 feet away from the cabinet) generally sounds like a washed out wall of reverb 2 inches from the speaker cone :) The same holds true for almost any effect you add at recording time. In this day and age there's not a really good reason to add (most) effects at recording time.. once they are there you can't take them away, but it's very very easy to add the relevant effects into your mix later. An amp spring reverb or component reverb doesn't hold a feather to a nice convolution reverb plugin, and when you start mixing and matching them you _really_ notice the difference!
Mark
Very good point, I'd worked it out all ready but still good to hear it again.
Dan.
-
About Gain:
I don't know if you guys noticed or not but my amp goes up to 11.
-
I have always heard the complaint "That's not what my guitar sounded like when I played it!" ... but guess what, it probably did sound just like that, you just weren't listening at the right spot! :D
And I thought my mic was broken !! :o
Seriously, when I started to mic my cab I was having the problem of getting it to sound as I heard it in the room. It was very frustrating because I was getting a totally different tone than what I was hearing. I actually started to wonder if my mic wasn't working well. ::) I realize now, and you just confirmed it, that when close micing your dealing with a diffferent sound point. You can't go by what you hear six feet away. It takes a bit of tweaking to get that good sound. I'm still playing around and would like to try to add a room mic as well. See if that gets me better results.
In this day and age there's not a really good reason to add (most) effects at recording time..
The problem with that and probably with most guitarists is that we need those effects to get the right feel for the song. It's really hard to play with a certain feel when it's totally dry. It would be nice to add effects later but can't always be done. ???
Dave
-
The problem with that and probably with most guitarists is that we need those effects to get the right feel for the song. It's really hard to play with a certain feel when it's totally dry. It would be nice to add effects later but can't always be done.
I would tend to agree with you, Dave... But, I guess some folks can visualize what the final output is going to be. And, do it dry. I'd have never known the clip below was done completely dry using his Strat. And, later adding the effects.
This was a guitar part that a fellow from the old guard at cc did for me several years ago. His userid was Powerpop (Jeff from the UK). Sergio probably remembers him. Since Sergio did the rhythm on this for me. Don't worry, I've removed my vocal, and limited the clip to a portion of Jeff's lead... I'm still impressed when I hear it, knowing how he did it.
BW@
http://echoprojectstudio.org/bobby/ir_clip.wma
-
Isn't there a way to monitor with effects, but record dry?
Jeff
-
Isn't there a way to monitor with effects, but record dry?
Jeff
Yes you can,with the right setup, Jeff... I do that a lot with singers who can't seem to track without hearing some effect in their headphones. Some folks don't like the way they sound dry. So, have trouble concentrating on the song. But, that can cause some problems as well with intonation... But, that's my opinion.
BW@
-
Isn't there a way to monitor with effects, but record dry?
Jeff
I can do that. It's really handy.
Dan.
-
I would tend to agree with you, Dave... But, I guess some folks can visualize what the final output is going to be. And, do it dry. I'd have never known the clip below was done completely dry using his Strat. And, later adding the effects.
This was a guitar part that a fellow from the old guard at cc did for me several years ago. His userid was Powerpop (Jeff from the UK). Sergio probably remembers him. Since Sergio did the rhythm on this for me. Don't worry, I've removed my vocal, and limited the clip to a portion of Jeff's lead... I'm still impressed when I hear it, knowing how he did it.
BW@
http://echoprojectstudio.org/bobby/ir_clip.wma
Is there the whole song around somewhere? It sounds really good.
Cheers, Dan.
-
Isn't there a way to monitor with effects, but record dry?
Jeff
Jeff- i've been doing it this way quite a bit recently. This is espescially good if you want to try different amp models, effects, etc after the fact. As Mark points out, it's all about context. But it always freaks me out a little to listen back to a completely dry guitar track-- sounds as thin as paper. And you hear ALL your mistakes loud and clear :P
-
This was a guitar part that a fellow from the old guard at cc did for me several years ago. His userid was Powerpop (Jeff from the UK). Sergio probably remembers him. Since Sergio did the rhythm on this for me. Don't worry, I've removed my vocal, and limited the clip to a portion of Jeff's lead... I'm still impressed when I hear it, knowing how he did it.
BW@
http://echoprojectstudio.org/bobby/ir_clip.wma
That would be cool to hear the dry comparison.
If I could just monitor the effects but record dry as Jeff mentioned that would be really interesting. It would allow me to try many different effects that way. How do you guys do it? Dan?
-
Is there the whole song around somewhere? It sounds really good.
Cheers, Dan.
I think maybe, you listened to the best part of it, Dan... I wrote the song about 30 years ago. Then, when I ran across CC several years ago, some of the folks there were kind enough to help me turn it into something, real. I had always hoped to recruit a singer to replace my attempt. But, never have. And, some of the "old" samples, could use a face lift as well.
At, any rate, not meaning to capture the thread, here is the complete original
.... I wish Powerpop was still around. But, he moved on to family and career. And, hasn't been heard from in a long time...
Regards,
BW@
http://echoprojectstudio.org/bobby/remember.wma
-
The problem with that and probably with most guitarists is that we need those effects to get the right feel for the song. It's really hard to play with a certain feel when it's totally dry. It would be nice to add effects later but can't always be done.
I would tend to agree with you, Dave... But, I guess some folks can visualize what the final output is going to be. And, do it dry. I'd have never known the clip below was done completely dry using his Strat. And, later adding the effects.
This was a guitar part that a fellow from the old guard at cc did for me several years ago. His userid was Powerpop (Jeff from the UK). Sergio probably remembers him. Since Sergio did the rhythm on this for me. Don't worry, I've removed my vocal, and limited the clip to a portion of Jeff's lead... I'm still impressed when I hear it, knowing how he did it.
BW@
http://echoprojectstudio.org/bobby/ir_clip.wma
Bobby,
I do remember PowerPop - and i like that guitar sound - if i remember correctly he used a FREE plug - i can't remember the name of the plug but i believe it was a Marshall model. If you remember Bobby, Powerpop used to play bass lines for his tunes on his six string and used an octave plug to make his guitar sound like a bass :)
Regarding this thread - its good to see that there are so many guitarists out there in search of the best tone. For the last few years I have been reasonably happy with the POD and PODXT - I do misss playing a real amp - I have a Mesa Boogie and Tech 21 sitting in my garage. I don't know if you can ever really emulate true feedback sustain without the air form the speaker vibrating the guitar strings. I just PMed Luis to let him know that i have added guitar rig2 to my setup (i am also hoping that he has not abandoned the guitar rig for POD - which he has inquired about in the past). Here is the degree of my current sickness -- :( -- I have now split my guitar signal into two feeds - one goes straight into the Firebox preamp channel 1 to record a dry track while the other feed goes thru my PODXT out of the stereo outputs into channels 3 and 4 of the Firebox. Now I have a tone i like to start out with plus the ability to futz with the dry track after the fact using the Guitar Rig plug. To answer Jeff's question about hearing effects whilke you play - in Sonar you just hit the input monitoring button and as long as you have decent low latency you hear the effected track as you record dry.
Mybe in this or another thread we could include samples of achieved tones. Personally, I am still in quest of some of Larry Carlton's tones from his 335 way back when he played with the Crusaders :-X more later...
sergio
sergio
-
Powerpop used to play bass lines for his tunes on his six string and used an octave plug to make his guitar sound like a bass
Now that you mention it, I do remember that, Sergio... Like I said, too bad Jeff isn't around anymore. He also did some "unique" music of his own.
BW@
-
I've thought about trying the dry recording but send the dry signal out to the external effects box.
I think there is a direct out on the box I have so I should be able to play with effects and record dry then be able to use different effects later.
I just didn't think it would work the same with a recorded guitar as plugging the guitar straight in.
Have to give it a try when I get the time.
-
I have been asking for dry/straight guitar tracks on a couple of projects lately. The reason is that when everything is coming together, many times the guitar tone just won't sit in the mix.
The bottom line always comes back to the gain. You just can't get that ballsy tone for rock when the guitar signal sounds like ten pounds of gain stuffed into a 5 pound bag.
I still remember doing a demo for a Starsearch audition. The song was pretty heavy and I was trying to get a Priest/Scorpions sound. I was in the studio saying it doesn't sound "mean" enough. I kept messing with the pre-amp gain and my tubescreamer pedal. After about 15 minutes, the engineer came into the recording room and very calmly backed the gain, bass and treble and turned the amp balls out. We then recorded the track 4 times switching guitars. It was hard to play, but the track was killer. best tone I ever got. We multed the guitar tracks and split them wide stereo. I then recorded the track with a ton of gain and we brought that up just under the others so you could just begin to hear it.
I also like to leave any FX until the last part of the mix. Chorus is nice, but can take over a mix.
Nick
-
Yep Nick ... exactly.
it's funny, but that "more balls" sound that most people associate with "more gain" is actually so little gain it's uncomfortable to play. The Alice in Chains type stuff comes to mind, Cantrell's guitar sounds HUGE and heavy as hell .. and has barely any gain on it ;)
Mark
-
If I could just monitor the effects but record dry as Jeff mentioned that would be really interesting. It would allow me to try many different effects that way. How do you guys do it? Dan?
I thought I had a dry out on the black box but apparently it doesn't.
I'm going to try plugging the guitar into the mixer then use the channel direct out to go to the black box then the mixer out is going into my DAW already so that would record the straight guitar without monitor and I would monitor the sounds of the black box.
Should work...
-
For the last few years I have been reasonably happy with the POD and PODXT - I do misss playing a real amp - I have a Mesa Boogie and Tech 21 sitting in my garage. I don't know if you can ever really emulate true feedback sustain without the air form the speaker vibrating the guitar strings.
Sergio, what I do when tracking is to split the signal and feed my amp and the recording interface at the same time. That way I can get a good feeling when tracking without beeing worried about the final "tone" (at least not at that moment). After that I can tweek the plug in at will.
-
Thanks Luis -- I think what I am doing with a split signal is the along the same lines..
I have now split my guitar signal into two feeds - one goes straight into the Firebox preamp channel 1 to record a dry track while the other feed goes thru my PODXT out of the stereo outputs into channels 3 and 4 of the Firebox. Now I have a tone i like to start out with plus the ability to futz with the dry track after the fact using the Guitar Rig plug
-
Is there the whole song around somewhere? It sounds really good.
Cheers, Dan.
I think maybe, you listened to the best part of it, Dan... I wrote the song about 30 years ago. Then, when I ran across CC several years ago, some of the folks there were kind enough to help me turn it into something, real. I had always hoped to recruit a singer to replace my attempt. But, never have. And, some of the "old" samples, could use a face lift as well.
At, any rate, not meaning to capture the thread, here is the complete original
.... I wish Powerpop was still around. But, he moved on to family and career. And, hasn't been heard from in a long time...
Regards,
BW@
http://echoprojectstudio.org/bobby/remember.wma
Awesome Downloading it now.
-
If I could just monitor the effects but record dry as Jeff mentioned that would be really interesting. It would allow me to try many different effects that way. How do you guys do it? Dan?
Hey Dave, sorry I've not replied to this earlier, for some reason I didn't get E-mail saying that this has been replied to, so expecting one that didn't come I thought no one had said anything.
What I do is I add effects in my music software. That's it, I plug my geetar up, play dry, and add sounds in GarageBand which can be added or removed anytime. I use it a bit. But I guess you just have to have the software to be able to do it.
Cheers, Dan.
-
I tried the dry guitar recording last night.
Worked pretty good really, I'll have to start using it.
It worked different than I thought though in practice.
All the routing is done in the computer. In the sequencer and the Interface control. So:
1. I'm recording and not monitoring the dry guitar.
the dry guitar is sent to the external FX which is routed back to the computer. That's the sound I monitor while recording.
2. Playback is just the dry guitar wav file sent to the external FX which is routed back to the computer.
3. The difference between recording and playback is accomplished by pressing the monitor button on the audio channel that the dry guitar is recorded on. So no patching is required.
The attachment is a recording of the dry guitar, straight at first then run through some effects presets. Now just have to learn how to play it.
-
That's pretty cool Tac.
It's nice to have the clean track so you can re-amp if the song calls for it.
What modeler are you using?
Nick
-
That's an M-Audio Black Box.
I bought it because of the sync effects, it's an economical version of adrenalin,
but I was pretty happy with the modeling.
Being able to change the guitar effects at mixdown should be good.
Hard to know what would sound good in the final mix when you start out.
-
Being able to change the guitar effects at mixdown should be good.
Hard to know what would sound good in the final mix when you start out.
It is good, I use it a bit. Very hady indeed.
Cheers, Dan.
-
Isn't technology a wonderful thing. That's a pretty cool example Tac. 8) I don't quite get the diagram though. Forgive me but I'm sometimes kinda slow at understanding the technical side. Let me get this right.
First your going from the guitar to mixer with a compressor added. From there it goes into the soundcard? Then out from the soundcard to an effects box? Is there an out from the soundcard? And then from your effects box out to??? Headphones??
Forigive me.. duh?? ::)
-
Ya no problem,
I forget what this card has 6 in or 8 out I think, so I have the I/O to route the signal where it's needed.
The Dry guitar is always going to the effects box. It's either coming from the live dry guitar(through the mixer then soundcard) or from the .wav file.
That's the switching that takes place, Live or recorded as the source for the effects box. So no patch cord changing. Had a few feedback loops till I got the routing right.
The output of the Effects box is routed back to the sound card to go out to headphones, monitors, or get recorded for a master or final guitar track.
-
Thanks. Makes more sense. I don't think I can do that with my sound card. Maybe. I'll have to look. This would be something worth playing around with. 8)
-
I just dusted off an old effects box, a Lexicon LPX-5.
I bought it about a year or two ago for vocals but I wasn't impressed at the time.
I just hooked it up and tried it on guitar. Has some nice delay stuff. The pitch effects make a grinding rythem part really full and spread across the stereo image.
I'll have to post an example, really familiar sound.
Seen one on ebay that just sold for $41.