Musicians Collaboration Studio
How To => Production Tips and Tricks! => Topic started by: Basil on March 19, 2008, 08:44:39 PM
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Hi,
Is there a trick to pick up where you left off when recording vocals on different days?
IE....I'm using the same everything, but I can seem to match the same sound.
Thanks for any advice on this subject.
Basil
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It would seem like it is an easy thing to do, but it is actually very hard. The thing is for me, my voice seems like it never sounds the same from one day to the next. The thing to remember is that if you don't warm up your vocals first, (I never do btw), my vocals sound better or stronger after a few takes. I would assume that the last takes you did the day before weren't the first of that day. For me, the last takes of the day are gonna sound more like the last takes of the next day. So what I am saying, for me anyway, I never expect the first take of the next day to sound like the last take of the day before, it just never does.... That make any sense to ya? So just make sure all your settings haven't changed, that you are the same distance from the mic as the day before, and then wait for the later takes to start sounding like the day before...
Curtis
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I find I NEVER sound the same...I never move my mic and use the same setting....
I think it's just one of those things....too many variables...even stoopid things like the ambient temperature can make the mic act very slightly differently , you may have used your voice more chatting in the day , or had more cigarettes ....I don't think it's easy to match your vocals up.
Better to just do the whole main track in one go and punch in on the same session anything that needs fixin'
CD
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Hi Curtis,
Exactly! What you have described in detail, is exactly what has been driving me crazy.
I thought maybe there was some method of over coming this with all the new technology available.
Hi CD,
I totally agree with you 100% about getting everything recorded all at the same time.
I guess some things change and some do not.
Thank you both for taking the time to reply and for validating my sanity.....well sort of :)
Basil
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Got a question.
How close to the mic are you when your recording ?
Right now I'm using a condenser mic and when I sing loud it distorts.
Curtis....you use a dynamic SM58 and do you have this problem?
CD........you use a AT4040 does this happen to you?
or anyone else that would like to chime in .
I get certain tones and can hit different notes when I sing at different volume levels and when I move away from the mic it sounds like I'm away from the mic....it's driving me crazy.
Thanks for any advice
Basil
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I can get right up on my mic if I need to. I can get different tones just from moving away more, or getting closer to it. I've even sang at an angle to get a little different sound. I have a homemade pop filter attached to my mic also, it sticks out about an inch from the mic, so I guess I never get any closer than that, but I'll stick my lips right on it if needed. I never get too far away from the mic though, no more than a foot or so.
Curtis
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Curtis,
What you have just stated leeds me to believe I should be using a trusty dynamic stage mic.
How loud do you sing ?
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It all depends on the song but to be honest, I don't really sing that loud compared to some. There are times I let go though. Some of what you need to do is keep an eye on your input levels. If I am gonna blow loud, I will turn down the levels a bit, so as not to clip. I also think my pre amp helps things some too.
Curtis
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Curtis,
What make and model of preamp do you use?
What software do you use for recording ?
Right now I have a condenser mic pluged into my 1/8 jack of my laptop and some headphones.
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Well I have an sm58, plugged into an ART Tube MP Studio pre-amp, then that just plugs into the 1/8 jack on my soundblaster card on my PC. I use Adobe Audition as my multitrack software. I am thinking hard of getting a better soundcard, actually I have thought about it for a long time, just never got around to it. I was looking at the EM-U 1212, just haven't bought one yet. I keep thinking that if it ain't broke, why fix it...lol. I just want to be able to record 24 bit, and I want to loose the 1/8 in jack. The plug on my soundcard now sometimes requires a bit of wiggling to make it work, and the 1212 has 1/4 in jacks. I am just afraid of change I guess...
Curtis
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I here ya.
The thing about computer stuff,once you open it up it's yours.
You don't even know if it's right for you until you try it out for awhile.
The 1/8 jack problem....Duct Tape.....LOL!!!
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Curtis, I'll let you know how the EMU1212 is. I've had it for about 6 months now but I will be putting it in my machine very soon. Just trying to find a break to do it. Too much music on the go.
Basil, I have to say that having worked with Curtis many times he has some of the best vocals going here. Not bad for a Shure 58 and an ARTTube preamp. 8) Those little ARTTubes work pretty good. Cheap and work well. I use to use one with my old bands singer when we were recording. Seems to warm up the vocals nicely. Doesn't take much.
Dave
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John Clark (JHC) gave me an incredibly useful tip the other day. He hangs his condenser mic so the body is above the diaphram. He then pushes the mic away from him so it's at an angle. He then sings 2" to 3" below the microphone. Voila! No sibilllance, no pop sounds! And no pop filter needed. I've changed that slightly for me. I hang the mic straight down, but I sing so that the LOWEST part of the mic is basically at the center of my nose or above. And I then sing about 1" away from the mic. So far this has been incredibly useful for me. I don't lose a lot of tone, but I definitely lose the sibillance and pop. Maybe it will help some of you guys too?
You guys probably already know this, but the distance from the mic is so important. It's called the bass proximity effect... the closer you get, the more bass you get in your vocals. So let's say one day you record at 2" from the mic at a lower preamp level. Then two days later you record at 8" away, but you boost the preamp level so the raw volumes are the same. You STILL won't get the same sound because of the bass proximity effect. If you haven't tried a test of this, I would.
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Those are great tips.
Do you sing loud?
I'll explain the best I can.
When I sing just above normal talking level and have the mic 2ft from me no distortion,
anything else is a no good in less I move about 4ft from the mic.
What gear are you using Mic,Preamp, Software, etc.. ?
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Curtis,
Is this the preamp you have ?
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ART-Tube-MP-Studio-Mic-Preamp?sku=180581
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Hey Basil, the great thing about it is I can sing as loud or as soft as I want and I don't have to move. I attached a clip to give an example. I am maybe 1/2" away from the microphone the whole time, with the BOTTOM of the microphone centered on my nose and the rest of the mic ABOVE my nose.
I use a Rode NTK mic for vocals with a Presonus Firepod as the preamp. I have other vocal tube-based equipment but the Firepod is passable. I use n-track software (ntrack.com) and am considering moving to Reaper. I'm a PC guy.
4 feet away? Definitely something wrong there. You are going to lose any bass in your take IMO. Are your recording viewmeters peaking when you are closer? Where is the volume setting on the input channel?
Paul
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I'm positive now what I've been using is wrong, if I tryed to sing or even talk 1" from the mic it would be distortion city.
Paul I'm using Reaper and there are no adjustable UV meters settings for the input of the signal.
I can't get the standard Mic slider setting on the windows mixer to change the input level either.
Basically I try to keep the record levels around -6 by not using my full voice or moving away from the mic,
this is even stranger for hearing myself through the heaphones.
Sometime I get a really good take but the all peaks are flat at the top and bottom....and I have start over.
Thanks for the vocal test demo.....Now I know 100% I need to upgrade my setup.
What does tube-based equipment do for the vocals ?
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Yes Basil, that's the exact pre-amp I have...and wow, it's dirt cheap now, when I bought mine it was $100 U.S.
Curtis
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I'm curious about the tube amp also.
What does it do for the vocals?
I have a small Yamaha mixer, so would I use the tube amp in a chain ahead of the mixer? And how would it enhance the vocals?
Thanks,
Todd
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Basil and Todd: In one word "warmth!" A tube based preamp should add warmth to your vocals. Like you asked though, Todd, where does it fit into the chain? If you take the output of the tube-ased preamp and put it into the (EDIT) MIC INPUT of your PC- or Mac-attached preamp, then all the tube based effects would be lost... you are back in the digital realm. You MIGHT be able to take the output of the tube based preamp into the LINE level input of your PC/Mac-attached preamp and not lose the warmth. I've tried this but I can't tell if the subtle difference is because I have lousy ears, or the tube based systems I have are nominal, or the Firepod actually IS pretty warm, etc.
I have two "tube-based" preamps: A Summit Audio 2BA-221 and the Presonus Eureka. Truthfully they sit pretty idle.
I SHOULD be able to take the output of the Presonus Eureka via it's optional SPDIF output into the SPDIF of the Firepod AND not lose that tube warmth. Haven't got that to work properly yet. Now that I have re-thought about this, I have an email into Presonus.
Another thing I use is a "mic splietter." Proco MS-3.
http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Co-into-Microphone-Splitter/dp/B0006MZFIE
The cable from my mic plugs into the MS-3. From there I can take any of the three outputs where I want. So I could plug one into channel 3 of my Firepod, another into the Summit Audio card and it's output into Line input #1 of my firepod, and another into the the Eureka then from the Eureka into Line input #2 of my Firepod. That way I can test the sound differences with exactly the same recording take.
Paul
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Thanks for the info Paul.
Man, thats alot of information for my brain to digest :)
I'd love to be able to add some warmth on my vocals as I record.
I'll have to give this some thought.
Thanks man,
Todd
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Warmth...I get it.
Like a marshall tube amp for guitar.
Curtis just plugs the mic into the tube preamp and takes the preamp out into the computer.
If I'm correct ....a tube amp has a better way of handling peaks in a signal than transitor/solid state amp and also has a fuller sound. However....they can also be noisy too.
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You can run it through vintage warmer afterwards if you want that sound too.
CD
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CD
Whats that you say?
Todd nice snidely whiplash cartoon.... :)
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It's a plugin that adds 'warmth'
CD
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It's a plugin that adds 'warmth'
I ain't touching that one!! ;D
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It's a plugin that adds 'warmth'
I ain't touching that one!! ;D
Dude..if you touch it you pay for it
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I don't know much about the technical aspects of it all, but I know the ART does make it sound better. Yeh, it adds warmth, but it also adds depth, which may or may not be the same thing. My pre-amp also has the phantom power which is needed for alot of mics, and it has a meter so you know where you are before you even hit record. For instance, if I just plug the sm58 into my soundcard, it sounds kinda thin. As for the noise issue, I have noticed less noise since I started using the pre-amp. I use XLR cables from the mic to the pre-amp, then XLR out the pre-amp to a 1/4 plug with a stupid 1/8 addapter into my soundcard. I use the line in port also, if I use the mic input it just doesn't work worth a crap, it may have something to do with the power boost built into the mic input. Without the pre-amp, I have to use the mic input for the power boost, but the pre-amp has it's own power boost, so that solves that problem. The ART does have plugs for 1/4 inch if you don't have any XLR cables, but I have been told the XLR is a better connection, and eliminates some noise. There are input and output knobs on it, so I can adjust things from it rather than mess with the soundcard controls. I have my soundcard control about 3/4 cranked, then I just control my levels with the output knob on my pre-amp. It did take some messing with to get just the right mix of input and output to make things sound best. Too much input does add noise I found. Like anything, you just need to find a sweetspot and go from there.
Curtis
Oh, and I have used the vintage warmer plugin, and it just doesn't sound as good....
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Oh, and I have used the vintage warmer plugin, and it just doesn't sound as good....
Man...you need vintage warmer 2 ;D
I too have a little tube pre and it does quite a decent job, I still like to add a little Vintage Warmer or Voxengo Warmifier though.
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Curtis,
You are a gentleman and a scholar and I very much appreciate the details and explaintion given. :)
Thank you.
Basil
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hmmmm...
Interesting discussion....
and well considering I'm outta the loop for recording until I can get set back up this weekend, thought I MIGHT be able to add a bit to this.
No one person's voice is going to be exactly like the others, so any one technique or software or set up is going to be right, its a use what You can and pick what You like or think sounds the best.
I personally use a variety of the things mentioned. The biggest one being vocal technique.
As Nick can probably attest I HAVE to work a mic, even the AT4040 that I'm using now, otherwise I'll peak out and distort.
Now, the advice about hanging, angling and singing about an inch below the mic itself is good advice, I actually do that myself, however I will also sing off to the side, or inch back a bit.
For example, if I'm looking for something with a really intimate light feel, such as with "Its Not Water" from the MC CD, I set up within about 1 inch of the mic, singing across the mic, giving that much warmer bassier tone, like Paul mentioned.
However for the rock stuff where I KNOW I'm going to be just going balls to the wall, to make sure that the track gets as much hootspah needed, and the dynamics necessary, I'll literally step back from the mic and sing OVER it, meaning on the hard belting choruses, I'll tilt my head back, so I'm literally singing across the mic but at an upwards slant, and step back 6 inches, it allows my voice to sound and feel the harder edge, but not distort the tracks, and at the same time keeps the verses from being too "low" in volume opposed to the choruses.
Tone is as much in how You sing, where You sing, how much You sing, as in any of the software, and gadgets You can put in line. It is also as much in learning how to manipulate Your own voice to achieve those tones, trying different ways of voicing or pronouncing words can dictate how hard Your hitting the track as well.
As far as sounding the same day to day...ummm...well to be honest. Unless You are going to sing faithfully every single day, with the same warm up time without ever getting sick, or having allergies or what have You. It just doesn't happen. However, having faith in Your ability to come close, that's all You can do. I will often work on just one part, get that perfect, and then not touch anything else until I know that I have time to complete the particular part in that same session. That's not to say I haven't spent hours one day, and then ended up re recording everything because I liked or disliked the tone more the next day.
Its like anything else subjective, but I'm still a firm believer in technique being the biggest discipline and the biggest consistant factor involved with good vocal recording.
And then again, I'm jonesin at the moment so, who knows maybe I'm just blowing smoke, I just know what works for me.
Brina
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Good stuff, Brina!
I have one for you mixers out there: when mixing vocals, I usually use soft knee compression, some reverb, occasionally some EQ, and am now experimenting around with Vintage Warmer 2! :-) I usually senmd all my vocal tracks to a 'group' then apply effects to that group.
Here is the question: what ORDER do you usually chain the effects in? I usually do compression first, then reverb, then EQ, and now Vintage Warmer 2. Is there a better way?
Paul
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Here is the question: what ORDER do you usually chain the effects in? I usually do compression first, then reverb, then EQ, and now Vintage Warmer 2. Is there a better way?
Paul
The only rule is do whatever works. There have been times when I've re-ordered plugins just because I can and it's made it better and other times worse, so I'd always say it's worth trying for the coupla minutes it takes.
It'll do different things to the sound, so sometimes compressing after the reverb will give a cool sound that might work, I often use more than one eq, one like Waves Q10 or similar to surgically cut any nasty frequencies, and often one after the compressor which can dull things, and to bring out the character of the vocal..I'll try to use my best sounding eq for boosting, something with a vintage character.
I always split the lead and backing vocals and send them to different groups as they generally need treating very differently. something like Vintage Warmer is good to put across the buss output , but you can also do cool things using it as a send/return with more extreme settings.
CD
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Good info, thanks CD!
Paul
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Hi Brina,
Very good information and I couldn't agree with you more..wish it was one size fits all.
Question to everyone.
1. Do you eq, compress, ect....the mic before recording?
2. What do you set your playback track volume at ..do you sing above the music or right at the balance point?
3. Do you use any effects while monitoring your vocal recording ?
Just wondering.
Basil
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Hey Basil, I don't put anything in front of the vocals that would stay in the WAV file as recorded. I only apply EQ, Compression, etc to MIXES AFTER the file is recorded.
I DO have a setting in ntrack called "Live" which allows me to listen to the vocals while recording, and it uses whatever track or group effects I have setup for that track. So the answer to that part of your question is a yes. But typically I like to hear my vocals kind of dry.
Depending on how comfortable I am with the beat of the track, I have the volume in my headphones accordingly. If I am very familiar, the volume is fairly low. This is important because I sing so close to the mic most of the time that any sound coming out of the headphones will be picked up by the mic as well.
When you are going to sing a track I would set the Record volume such that you don't peak above a -6 or so. So you do a trial to see if the loudest part of your song goes above that... if it does, you turn down your gain on the preamp etc. You can ALWAYS apply compression afterwards and use volume envelopes to bring up the low volume stuff. The only gotcha with that is that any "noise" in the file (less than stellar transformers, ambient noise, et cetera) comes up in the mix as well.
Paul
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I always record dry also, I don't know of anyone here that applies effects before it is recorded. It is so easy to apply those effects afterwards, and if they are there before recording, nothing will reverse it. As far as levels that I listen while I record, kinda like Paul, it depends, on some rock stuff where I gotta belt it out, I monitor it pretty loud, just makes it easier for me to get into it performance wise. As for the headphone bleed that Paul talks about, I like to hold my hands over my headphones and smash them up against my ears so that less sound bleeds out, but to be honest, a little bit of the track bleeding through with your vocal isn't all that big a deal, as long as it isn't really loud. I have worked with alot of other peoples vocal tracks here and for the most part, they all have a little music bleeding through, and it has never caused me much problems. There was a thread on here where it pointed to some Queen tracks, I downloaded them and played around with them, and to be honest, some of the junk on those raw tracks is pretty bad, it kinda made me rethink all the steps I try so hard to make my tracks perfect, because the Queen tracks are far from perfect...lol
Curtis
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Ok...record everything dry.
Put any FX on after.....what order?
What do you use as a referance ?
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Like CD said above, the order of effects is personal preference, or for a specific effect. I generally try soft knee compression first, then reverb, then EQ. And like CD, I tend to send all my lead vocal tracks to one Group and all background vocals to another Group, then add the effects to the Groups and NOT to the specific tracks.
Can you explain what you mean by 'reference?'
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Do you use headphones or speakers when you polish your sound ?
And all of the polishing is just for demo purpose ,becuase who ever is going to mix wants eventhing dry ?
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In My personal opinion, yay I know everyone has one.
Everything should be recorded dry,that allows for a cleaner track as well as less damage control when mix time comes. The less You do when recording the track, the more someone who knows what they are doing can do when the song is put together.
Secondly, and this might be because of the amount of harmony vocals I tend to record as well, but I will NEVER use effects on my reference, the reason? Well, quite honestly if You are changing the original track with even so much as reverb, You are affecting what You are hearing, and that means You might not be blending the vocals correctly. Most of the time, it effects how a singers pitch is. A dry reference gives You exactly what You are singing, I have found I tend lay better quality vocals, performance wise because I'm closer to pitch and the tone is generally more well balanced for the tune. As a singer it also makes me less dependent upon the various gadgets out there to get that "sound" i'm searching for.
but then again, I'm also someone that untill the last couple years would redo and redo a track to fix one slight outta tune spot, rather than let someone auto-tune, amazing how opinions change....
Brina
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Secondly, and this might be because of the amount of harmony vocals I tend to record as well, but I will NEVER use effects on my reference, the reason? Well, quite honestly if You are changing the original track with even so much as reverb, You are affecting what You are hearing, and that means You might not be blending the vocals correctly. Most of the time, it effects how a singers pitch is... Brina
I hadn't thought of that, Brina. That's good advice.
A couple of other things.
Curtis was talking about putting his hands over his headphones. That's a good idea. I have two sets of headphones. An AKG K240 Studio (55 ohm!!! NOT the K240S at 600 ohms!!) and a Sennheiser HD 280 Pro (64 ohm). Those AKG's are so comfortable I have literally walked away from studio wearing them while plugged in and about gave me whiplash. I can wear them for HOURS! The Sennheisers are uncomfortably tight for me. BUT!!!! Lately I've been wearing the Sennheiser for recording. Why? I HEAR so much more with the Sennheisers, things I never heard with the AKG's. And because they fit so tight there's less bleed outside of them. Don't discount your headphones!
Another singing is good SINGING TECHNIQUE!!! I've learned about 3% of what I need to learn to be a good vocalist. One of the BEST things I've learned from a vocal teacher in a 15 minute lesson was 'consonants get in the way of vowels. Spit them out and concentrate on the vowel sounds!' For example, I have attached two different ways of singing a single word 'amen'. Amen1 concentrates on the vowel sounds and sounds more like Aaaaaaaaaameeeeeeeeeeeeeeen. Amen2 sounds more like Aaaaaaammmmmmeeeeeeeennnnnnnnn. When you drag through the consonants you end up sounding flat. Still hard for me to do but I am working on it. And I STILL need to work on breath control so that I am holding the note better without quavering (as evidenced in the attached files).
Paul
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Was wondering how long on average is spent recording main vocals for a song ?
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Basil,
That's a tough one to really give You an answer for. It totally depends on the track and the singer.
I've had times when I've done literally a once through, and I've had songs where I must have spent 16 hours trying to get perfect (or as close as possible), and that is the lead vocal.
It all depends on the song, the singers connection with the song, how familiar the singer is with the lyrics, and the composition.
However, I will say...the once through is a rarity. On average for a lead vocal I spend between 2 to 6 hours, that's for an average lead vocal, that's just the singing, that isn't counting playing with lyrics if necessary or listening to and analyzing the bed track for cue ins and so forth and so on.
Brina
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Well...
There is a lady I know named Christi John Bye who used to sing with a group named Nightfall. You can hear some of her vocals here:
http://www.myspace.com/rustyspringfieldmusic
Check out Tell Me and So Late. Anyway, the bass player Rusty calls Christi the "One Take Wonder", even on songs she's never sung before.
On the other hand, I've worked with a guy named Michael Andrew. He did the vocals on my Devil May Care song. The guy's been on Merv Griffin, wrote the score for and sang the score on a Hollywood-released movie... and he spends HOURS and HOURS on each song fine tuning.
http://michaelandrew.com/
So I guess it depends.
I tell ya, I was looking at Celemony.com's Melodyne Studio today. I may just have to suck it up and buy that program. It DEFINITELY shows you how good and bad you sing and helps you correct timing, pitch, you name it. But at $570 USA it ain't cheap.
Paul
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That's alot of hours spent tracking. :o
I'm lucky if I get one hour where my home isn't up for grabs. :(
Questions..( to all ) How long have you been involved with recording?
How long have you been singing ? ...where your the vocalist.
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Well...
There is a lady I know named Christi John Bye who used to sing with a group named Nightfall. You can hear some of her vocals here:
http://www.myspace.com/rustyspringfieldmusic
Check out Tell Me and So Late. Anyway, the bass player Rusty calls Christi the "One Take Wonder", even on songs she's never sung before.
On the other hand, I've worked with a guy named Michael Andrew. He did the vocals on my Devil May Care song. The guy's been on Merv Griffin, wrote the score for and sang the score on a Hollywood-released movie... and he spends HOURS and HOURS on each song fine tuning.
http://michaelandrew.com/
So I guess it depends.
I tell ya, I was looking at Celemony.com's Melodyne Studio today. I may just have to suck it up and buy that program. It DEFINITELY shows you how good and bad you sing and helps you correct timing, pitch, you name it. But at $570 USA it ain't cheap.
Paul
I really liked his vocals...I'd say he's the best singer I've mixed for yet.
Me...well as you know I'm no singer but I do my own vocals mostly and I try to get it all done within about 40 minutes. I find anything after that the singing seems to get worse when I listen back the next day.
Now I just do one run though , the spend a few minutes deleting the lines or words that weren't so good and I punch them in on the same track.
Once I've done that , I usually have a take where I just stand a bit further back and really go for it. Sometimes it works and sometimes not , but I often use those parts for Bv's or doubleing lines etc.
Sometimes I end up using the scratch vocal as I can't get a better take. I do all those sat in my chair in front of the PC and just angle the mic towards me ;D
CD
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This is a great thread. Learning lots. 8)
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Well, I started recording prank and obscene phone calls when I was 5 and then...
Oh, wait, that's not what you were really asking!! :-[ :o
I've been collabing for about 6 years now? But there was a big gap until about 2 to 3 years ago. Then I joined back up on the now-defunct CollaborationCentral.com and then heard about this great site. Only been really singing for the last couple of years...
Paul
Questions..( to all ) How long have you been involved with recording?
How long have you been singing ? ...where your the vocalist.
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That's alot of hours spent tracking. :o
I'm lucky if I get one hour where my home isn't up for grabs. :(
Questions..( to all ) How long have you been involved with recording?
How long have you been singing ? ...where your the vocalist.
About 15 years....
A couple of years just doing my own things with a keyboard and a four track
5 years working for my friends band as the the PA guy - recording engineer - Roadie - Technician
The last 8 or 9 back to singing and writing my own songs. My first year here has been my most productive sonce band days !
CD
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Hey Guys, Just trying to catch up.
I didn't see where you stated your microphone Basil so I won't comment on that.
But from your description it doesn't sound like a good mic to use.
I've had some pretty good mics and I've had some mics I thought were pretty good until I heard better ones and not nessesarily more expensive.
I've used mics that sound really good until you push them and then they fall apart and make your voice sound horrendous. If your having control issues at 2' and 4' you should consider getting a compressor linmiter. Mostly the limiter. I use an audio device for my live recording events after going through several devices that I found works really well. It's the Edirol UA-25. It has a built in limiter which isn't perfect from someone that knows how to fine tune one. But it has saved so many of the live perfromances I've conducted at my Somngpulls.
You can also opt for a small Alesis comp/limiter which can also do fine for cheap money.
Nothing can compare to good mic technique and the more sensitive the mic is. The more crucial the technique. I've heard some awsome live perfomances with the use of just an SM 58 wich is extremely durable for abuse. You may want to consider using one of those.
I sing many things highlighting an intimate breath sound so on those I'm literally 2" from the mic and sometimes I do have to step back and turn my head (and sometimes cough) :-[
Tube Verses Solid State? I can't say one is better than the other. I think of them as different. I sometimes want a hard edge brighter vocal where the Solid State Works better. The tube can actually dull it.
Like Brianna said, Dry is best when you are tracking. But effects can make you have a better attitude in your singing. But it has that price to pay of keeping in tune as well as timing because effects will delay your execution depending on how you are routing it.
Apologies for the long post. But for probably the best results is to set up 3 to five tracks for vocals (In Sonar you can do it all in one track with separate takes). Just go through the whole song non stop 3 to five times.
There is nothing more frustrating than knowing when you make a mistake and stopping to try and fix it right then.
After you are done you can go through "phrase by phrase" and choose any of the 3-5 takes and mute the others. Because sometimes you may start off good but end a phrase not to your liking. So next time around you can focus just on the ending of that section.
It may seem like a long time but you'll find it to be more organized and as your voice starts to fall apart you'll be glad you didn't delete some of the previous sections.
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Hi Juice,
What brand of mic /model have you found that can be pushed for recording without having the sound fall apart ?
Thanks
Basil
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Hmmm,
I've only been recording for ....**thinks*** working on year number 3 I think, not that long really, at least recording where as I have control over everything, worked in and out of studios doing vocals for years, so familiar with techniques used in booths before that.
However i've been performing for over half my life....almost 21 years now, started at 14, singing and playing keyboards...ugh why do I all of a sudden feel very very old??????
Brina
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That's alot of hours spent tracking. :o
I'm lucky if I get one hour where my home isn't up for grabs. :(
Questions..( to all ) How long have you been involved with recording?
How long have you been singing ? ...where your the vocalist.
Just stumbled onto this thread. Great info from some great folks. In answer to your questions, Basil, I began recording about 1 year ago after discovering this site and have been singing my songs and whatever else at home for about the same amount of time. Never played on a stage or band. Can't get more newbie than that! This site is great with supportive people and good info.
AJ
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Hi Juice,
What brand of mic /model have you found that can be pushed for recording without having the sound fall apart ?
Thanks
Basil
That is not an easy question to answer and trial an error is always going to be your best friend.
I can tell you I've never been blessed with the financial status to afford mics that cost thousands but I've tried many of the low end mics and found the mid way point can usually do a fair job.
About 25 years ago I remember Peavey came out with this mic that they claimed sounded exactly as the Shure Standard SM-58 (BTW don't underestimate the quality you can get out of an SM 58). So I was intrigued because I was outfitting my bands setup and figured I could save some dough as they were like half the cost.
Being skeptical I put both mics sided by side to see if I could hear the difference.
I was actually a little surprized at first because it did sound pretty close although I wasn't really pushing it.
So I figured these just might work. So I grab the mic from the stand and all of sudded I thought my speakers were going to jump out of their cabinets.
I said whoa! what he heck is that. The handling noise on the mic was so bad you couldn't even touch it without making loud low end noises from the rubbing of your hand around the mic. It picked up every little nuance of vibration through the mic stand which would be no good for live performance when you got drums kicking away and jumping around. A Feed back nightmare waiting to happen.
I grabbed the SM 58 and it was quiet as anything when I handled it and moved it around in my hand.
The insulation protecting the element seemed to be the biggest difference and obviously loud volumes would penetrate through the Case of the microphone adding noise and that to me was not acceptable.
As far as breaking up? It's hard to say what will do it. But chances are if have to treat your equipment with kid gloves because it needs to be dealt delicately or it throws a tantrum. :o
Keep looking.
All mics don't fit all situations so if you have to buy a mic to do all get one that has extra features like DB padding.
Good brand named mics will usually have very good case consrtuction and a low noise shelf.
If you need to carry around some mics just to plot down ideas then the real cheap mics will do the job and hurt so much if they get broken or lost or runned over. :-[
I have been using recently the Rode NT3 for my live events and they have a very nice tightness to them. I know that seems like a weird term but I put them side by side to two of my Groove Tubes Large Diaphram mics and it was way more responsive. I sold the 2 GT's. The NT 3 is only a medium size condenser but sounds really good for both vocals and acoustic guitar.
You can hear them being used live by going to my website and seeing any of the recent videos.
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This has been quite educational and a great way to demystify vocal recording and I thank everyone who has chimed in.
More importantly having a chance to get you know you and for sharing your experiences and knowledge.
I've been recording dry vocals as well, because of latency problems with my set up and
I understand the merits of dry vocals. I don't understand or know how to record having some effects on and still have a dry vocal track? I was thinking effects are how you get your sound. If electric guitar players took away amp sound and FX when they record I'm sure this would change the performance as well....right?
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I think the key is to NOT have effects turned on in any preamp hardware you are using that your mic chains through. For example, I can record through my Presonus Eureka. It has a compressor and a limiter built into it. I make sure when I record with the Eureka to turn these effects OFF! Then in my DAW I have the ability to route a given track to a Group (or Channel I guess others term it). I apply effects to the Group/Channel. What gets recorded on the TRACK is dry, what I HEAR from the GROUP has effects. Ok?
Paul
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Ok...that make sence.
Now I've to figure out how this is done.
Thanks
Basil