Musicians Collaboration Studio
How To => D.A.W. Help => Topic started by: Brina on January 30, 2008, 07:03:54 PM
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Ok,
The time has come to toss the laptop into the proverbial sea of dead machines. And well, I'm at a loss as to where to go. I don't really want to change my set up too awful much, because of comfortability. So what i'm looking for is basically a box with the guts so that I can run more than 3 freaking plug ins at a time. Looking for suggestions...what does everybody use, I'm a sonar user with no intentions of changing to another program, a multitude of usb connections such as external hard drives, burners, midisport fast track pro audio interface, behringer board for monitoring and recording, etc etc. I just really have no clue what I should be looking for as far as processors and schtuff!!. I'm needing something that's going to handle recording and mixing, but not going to leave me crying at the bank either, but at the same time is upgradable as my hankering for more toys expands... >:D >:D
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I know a few of You have come across some killer deals on windows machines lately...wanna share the secret?? ;D ;D ;D
Brina
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A box with guts?
Well that pretty much narrows it down.
I can send a few boxes with guts for fee. ;)
I use Sonar also. But are you looking for a Laptop again?
Or just a desktop?
Either way, go for something at least with a Dual Core 2. Make sure it says "2" after the Core. And at least 2 GB ram.
If you stay close to that all the other features should be up to snuff.
If you are going to go with a Laptop you should know before hand that Sonar isn't friendly to their onboard sound cards. There is a work around because I use my Laptop as my recording DAW as well as almost everything else. But it's a mute point if that is not your direction.
I just heard of an awesome deal at Best Buy that went fast.
But if you monitor www.dealnews.com you can find out if anybody is having any specials. If you register they can send you emails on just what you are looking for as they bargains come out.
I use them to tell me when Dell is offering discounts using coupon codes because Dell wont tell about them if you ask when your ordering something.
Good Luck, What ever you get should be enough to Handle Sonar.
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hmm
I probably should clarify, I'd prefer to stay away from the lap top route if possible...well aware of the soundcard issues.....pretty sure I drove Mark nuts for a few months with that one!!...hehehe..
Thanks for the suggestions juice,
Anybody else???
Brina
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My one piece of advice would be to stay the hell away from Vista. Get a box with xp even if you have to pay extra for it.
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My one piece of advice would be to stay the hell away from Vista. Get a box with xp even if you have to pay extra for it.
A few months ago, I would have agreed with you 100%. But, because of my web development, and the fact that most every machine in my house blew up from a lightning strike, I had to replace with what was available at the moment. That was a Vista machine. Most all of my software, including music has finally caught up with the operating system. Are there still a few obstacles? Sure there are. And, unless you are planning on doing some upgrading, I'd agree staying with XP. But, we all know, eventually, you get pushed off the cliff.
BW@
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I use Sonar PE on a Core Duo laptop and have no probs once I built it the way I want. I use the Presonus Inspire FW interface and really have not had problems.
I used to have a desktop system. The problem with it was while I could put extra drives and cards in the box there was so much integrated on board that almost of the resources were already used up and stay used even though you disabled them in them via the BIOS. My PCI audio device ended up sharing virtual IRQs and I had to move it to different PCI slots to find a free IRQ. It's not a good thing to have your video card and audio device share the same resources.
If yor dead set against the laptop then I would look into a desktop the does not require too many fans (low noise). The shuttle systems come to mind. Last time I looked they used the heat pump to to cool things, were no bigger than a bread box and had space fore extra drives and PCI cards.
http://us.shuttle.com/Home.aspx
This ones a bit pricey but dam thats a lot in one box
http://us.shuttle.com/P2_3800_5.aspx
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Without getting into tec speak what about a Dell? Maybe CD can tell you a bit. He has a Duo Core Dell that sounds like he's happy with. Plus with Dell you can do a monthly payment plan. Pretty low prices. :)
Dave
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From, the gamin world I hear good things about the Dell XPS systems but I'm not sure about any of their other models
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I'm a happy Laptop Dell user. :)
I did still have to deal with a few things to use Sonar.
But thje good Laptops are not very cheap after you upgrade them to DAW level. I mean their standard stuff will work but you'll want at least the audio upgrade and the hard drive upgrade as well as the Memory upgrade.
Your looking at somewhere near $1000.00.
The XPS systems are also their higher end stuff.
I also Use Shuttle computers for my desktop and they are not very cheap either.
But knowing where your budget is will pretty much guide your direction on what you can use. I would guess that money most likely is a factor.
Seeing how you admitedly use a Behringer mixing board (and I mean that in the nicesest way) :-[ ;D. Your probably looking for the least expensive way to get back on track and functioning again. (I hope that last paragragh doesn't get me in trouble) :-X :-X :-X :-*
Unless your are doing large amounts of tracks in Sonar you will most likely be fine with just about anything you pick up if it's fairly new. Just beef up on the Ram so your plug ins don't drag you down.
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hehehe,
not going to get into a Behringer debate, but yes money is definately a factor, however that is not the reason why I'm adamant about continuing with the current use of the board. And onboard drive space isn't an issue, I've got plenty of external space between webspace and external drives.
BP? what the hell did You just say??? >:D >:D >:D
I've been looking at the Dell option....
I appreciate the suggestions......unfortunately I've got probably 500 bucks to play with, so it does minimize my options.
Brina
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Just a quick heads up about Dell.
First of all they do have some refurbs that youi can save some money on. And the reason I mention the refurbs is because they take your order and you often have to wait for the system you want to be built. Even if it's the basic no frills system. It could be weeks before you see it.
Make sure you find out about that before you make your order. Because they usually won't tell you that until you've iron out the payment part of the transaction.
I forget who it is But Dell has aligned themselves with a major store (it could be Staples I'm not sure). But some of those stores might off you like 12 months no interest no payments. Best Buy offered that in the past.
Just some things to consider on your hunt.
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Brina, most anything you pick up off the shelf now a days will probably do what you want.
I actually just replaced my studio DAW with one off the shelf At WalMart for around $300. It was complete w/o monitor, which I don't need anyway. Even came with XP installed, which is beginning to be a rarity. All I did extra was upgrade the memory as soon as I got it home. That's because of my sample libraries....
We can all give you the best of options. But, IMO for what you normally do, most anything will work. But if you do, and it doesn't I will lie and say I didn't lead you down the garden path..
Good Luck Shugah :-*
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I agree with Bobby here, a pre-made -- preferably not too proprietary or a small footprint case (read: normal mid tower case) should do you fine.
The Intel Core 2 Duo Intel stuff is great, and I think in the cheaper price range you might even find a quad core something or other -- Nick just told me about one he saw that was a killer price. A full sized SATA drive, and a good bit of ram and semi-decent motherboard and you're set.
Mark
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I saw that gateway amd phenom quad-core. 3gb ram and 1TG drive for $649 after rebate!
Wish I would have bought that one!
Keep your eyes out for this weekends specials B.
Nick
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I was thinking the same as Bobby that most anything you pick up off the shelf now a days will probably do what you want. My old P4 with windows 2000 runs all my plugs and most programs. No problems for recording. Take a bit of time to shop and watch for some deals. I should ask my Tecs from work what 'not to get'. Everything else is open. :)
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I saw that gateway amd phenom quad-core. 3gb ram and 1TG drive for $649 after rebate!
Wish I would have bought that one!
Keep your eyes out for this weekends specials B.
Nick
eww gateway if you buy one keep the box cuz you;ll be returning it
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I'm not trying to scare you away from dell but I have had my dell for 3 weeks and the hard drive crapped already. they took care of it. but I got vista and also have sonar. you need to know what you are doing with computers for that combo (I don't have a clue).
I hope I helped
DAN k
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I saw that gateway amd phenom quad-core. 3gb ram and 1TG drive for $649 after rebate!
Wish I would have bought that one!
Keep your eyes out for this weekends specials B.
Nick
eww gateway if you buy one keep the box cuz you;ll be returning it
Pat, Where is your Cheeeeeee? :)
Yeah...I build my own, but those are not without problems too. That gatway at that price...You couldn't buy the parts for that.
Nick
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hmmm,...
I think I'm actually going to go this route...
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8661575&type=product&id=1196470438845
don't think there's much that I'm going to need any more than this...
only real big concern now is the vista issue with sonar 6....
push comes to shove I guess I can dump it and install XP...famous last words...Oh Mark!!!!!!!!
I appreciate the suggestions guys, You'd think by now I'd have a clue eh??? I'll still be watching the sales fliers and schtuff though, never know i might get lucky.....
Brina
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Cakewalk brags that it works fine with Vista...
http://www.cakewalk.com/vista/default.asp
I can't verify that, since I haven't used Sonar since I brought up the Vista machine here. But, suspect it probably works fine. Most all the majors have caught up with the OS by now. I recently upgraded my Audition and Reason for Vista versions. And, so far all is well.
The box you're looking at looks alright to me. The ram (she giggles) should be sufficient for loading most sounds you migit use.
Good Luck
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That looks beefy enough and a good price.
You mentioned you have other hard drives.
If you have a spare install it in your new computer as a slave and go into your cmos and alter the boot sequence to boot from that drive. On that one install XP as a fail safe incase Vista wigs out on you. Install all your stuff like you were going to. Then go back and change the boot sequence to the original and run Vista as long as you want.
If you have no problems then you never need to go to the other drive. But if you do as long as you set up Sonar to keep the files in the same spot regardless of what drive it's on. Because you can still have acces to either drive no matter what you boot off of.
If that is too confusing save you current files that you are working on as Bundle files and you won't have to worry about where they are.
I know that's probably too much information. But it sounds a lot harder than it is. :)
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i recommend against bundles. They corrupt and once that happens, you are dead in the water. Just save all your projects to project folders as recommended.
Nick
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I too was looking for the Cheeeeeeee! Pat. I still have those album covers here somewhere hehe...
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I too was looking for the Cheeeeeeee! Pat. I still have those album covers here somewhere hehe...
My bad, didn't realize you guys liked it so much, so now it's back
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Cheeeeee!
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Cheeeee! is back in da house
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Hey Brina
Dave's right , I got one of the Dell Vostro range...mainly because they were
1. very cheap for what I need
2. I could choose XP for no extra ( for legacy hardware compatability, not so much the software )
3. As business PC's they don't put a bunch of software on them.
Mine's a Core2 Duo 2.3 / 2gb Ram / 320hdd....I think the Best Buy one will be fine too if Vista runs your other hardware , but would be worth checking prices, I wasn't sure if you needed a monitor too ?
CD
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I did the same thing CD did. Went with XP on my Dell and you can customize from there. You don't need a bunch of wasted software if you use it mainly for music. Saves resources. My $.02
AJ
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Regarding Sonar compatibility with Vista: there is a huge thread (many, actually) going on the Cakewalk newsgroup about this. A few things that it seems to be boiling down to:
1. Vista runs Sonar with poorer performance than XP in low latency (= <5-8ms) situations except in the latest release 7.0.2.
2. Your milage may vary dependant on the sound card drivers. Check the Cakewalk newsgroups for others who are using your card and Vista and see what the general reaction is.
3. Something happened in 7.0.2 that people with appropriate sound card drivers are reporting performance "on par" with XP.
HTH
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I don't believe in the all in one bundled systems. Must be my gamer mentality. No dis to Bobby and Gerk. Manufacturers always cut corners some where. Also pre-install images have so much junk you spend half the time removing the stuff you don't need. In this regard it is my opinion that you get what you pay for.
My systems usually last longer and run faster when I spec the HW and OS confiig. Then at least I know what goes in it and can choose where to cut the corners. Though I do my own supports so
if your uncomfortable with the roll your own approach then I would suggest the wal mart approach.
My next system is going to be one of these
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Brand=1465&N=2000030003+50001465&Submit=ENE&Manufactory=1465&SubCategory=3&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&CMP=KNC-GoogleAdwords%20&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-NA-_-NA-_-NA
I'm looking forward to no fan noise. Right now my gamer has 3 or 4 fans.... :D
Best of luck in deciding on your DAW HW and bingining it up to speed.
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I did the same thing CD did. Went with XP on my Dell and you can customize from there. You don't need a bunch of wasted software if you use it mainly for music. Saves resources. My $.02
AJ
It's very quiet too , but then so should any Core2 machine in comparison to older PC's due to running cooler......I also just remembered that I paid a little more so I could get the 2.3ghz processor as it's the first one where it has a faster Front Side Bus.
CD
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Okay, this is getting close to input overflow... So, my final advise is get "someting" and start tracking.. 8)
Regards,
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Did you find anything yet Brina ?
CD
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hmmm,...
I think I'm actually going to go this route...
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8661575&type=product&id=1196470438845
don't think there's much that I'm going to need any more than this...
only real big concern now is the vista issue with sonar 6....
push comes to shove I guess I can dump it and install XP...famous last words...Oh Mark!!!!!!!!
I appreciate the suggestions guys, You'd think by now I'd have a clue eh??? I'll still be watching the sales fliers and schtuff though, never know i might get lucky.....
Brina
Hi Brina,
I think if you haven't taken the plunge on this or a similar system, I wouldn't.
when it comes to sonar and multi track development(with effects) you need to concentrate on 2 things processor and hard drive, on the processor on that quote, I think you will not be satisfied with performance.
I would go with no less than and E6850 processor, 2gb memory is good but at that fastest speed possible 666 mhz to 800 Mhz, and for hard drive large is not necessarily ideal, you need a minimum of 2 drives just for music, one for regular use and the other for a daily backup, best to have these internal.
THe 3.0 SATA drives will do just fine they transfer at 300mb/s .
With Sonar effects eat up CPU and the more tracks you have requires fast hard drive retrieval.
Also on your bestbuy quote you have built in video, not really preferred best to have a separate video card at least 128 MB.
I really find some of the best deals on Dell, and there is a website called dealcatcher.com good for watching there best deals. The Dell Vostro 400 is a good choice just select the E6850 processor. the 20" monitor is really nice for Sonar.
I know you are on a budget but it would be closer to $700-800 for a system you will be happy with and will carry you forward.
Vista, XP dilemma? If you verifiy any software or devices you plan to use work with Vista, that would be fine, but I have had negative results and went back to using XP, and that's another thing Dell you can get XP as a choice most other venders are not offering it.
I'm sure you are overloaded with choices here, I build my own systems and have been building systems for small business for the past 8 yrs. the above recommendations work and you will spend more time making music and not fixing your computer or crashing the great take you just made.
good luck
Dan
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Vista is horrible, and has been horrible since it's release.
http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid14_gci1297934,00.html
The problem is, it should always work and should never drive people to discuss how they got it to work.
In my company, I run a small network of about 15 computers, most running XP, windows server, and two computers running Vista. Of all the computers, the Vista machines give us the most problems.
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I think the things atljam is talking about is more towards building a proper DAW, which I wouldn't buy off the shelf.
The cost of a good power supply and case is getting close to the price of one of these out the door systems. And these bargain systems do have a lot of bang for the buck.
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Vista is horrible, and has been horrible since it's release.
Couldn't agree more. I bought a vista machine for my wife recently to replace a win2K box. I've had to disable most of vista's "slick" features to get it to run at all-- and this thing came with vista installed already! It also came with so much bloatware I'm still uninstalling crap two months later. She only uses it for email, web browsing, and occasional spreadsheets. She wants her win2K machine back! God help anyone trying to do a daw on a vista machine, that's gonna be an exercise in despair. :P
Upgrade to XP! ;)
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Vista is horrible, and has been horrible since it's release.
As one of my friends said "I'm done with Bill".
I would love to switch to using a Linux DAW but it's not all there yet. For general stuff no worries I can use Linux, yet to dupe what I have on Windoze would be hard with the amount of wma files being pushed around here. MAC seems to be the logical choice but shelling out for another system plus DAW is prohibitive right now.
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I have to say that, aside from Sonar and some low-latency issues, I have had VERY good luck and adoption of Vista as my primary. My work laptop, a Lenove x61 tablet works great with it, and unline the tablet edition of xp, it doesn't feel like an afterthought-add-on. On my desktop, I have two partitions, one with XP, and one with Vista. for the longest time, I was using Vista exclusively, but I went to work on a larg-ish Sonar project and I just couldn't keep it happy, so I flipped over to the XP side where it's been fine.
But I definitely LIKE Vista better as an OS and from a productivity perspective. Lots of shortcuts to get to things, instant search, context irrelevent document and email finding, snappiness of the system, etc. If they can get a few more things ironed out at low latency (or I have some time to get back to my Vista partition and check if 7.0.2 is working now) and/or Echo gets their new WaveRT drivers to work right with Sonar in WDM mode (i.e. not ASIO), I'll be happy to make the switch.
I also own a tech support company providing support to small->medium sized businesses in the Atanta area and I don't yet recommend corporate adoption of Vista, even if for only the learning curve, expense, and the IE7 mandates that are issues for some of my clients and the web sites they use. But if someone is getting a new special purpose machine or is plopping one into a "standard" office machine, running typical apps like Outlook and word/Excel, Inet browsing, etc, I don't have issue with the move forward, as it's generally been pretty painless for me and my use and for a lot of other IT folks I know. Of course, a pre-built system is going to have all sorts of extra "fodder" on it, so it's likely to be a botched/bloated install, so that's possibly a different animal.
You certainly have to know a few things about your "stuff" to go into Vista to make sure it will all work, but especially for the "common user", Vista is pretty good, and for the power user, it has some great opportunities that just kill XP for me.
HTH
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**sigh**
If the budget wasn't as much of an issue, then i'd definately be a slight bit more picky.
But, now it looks like its going to be months before I can be up and running again.
I do appreciate all the comments, and i'll come back and take a look and keep everything in mind when i do, in the mean time I'm dead in the water so to speak.
Brina
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:( That sucks
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Well it's not like they ever go up in price.
You'll get a better one for the money a few months down the line.
CD