Musicians Collaboration Studio
How To => D.A.W. Help => Topic started by: Studioplayer on December 01, 2006, 05:06:20 AM
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Can anyone tell me how much difference 16 & 24 bit make when recording? Can you hear an audible difference? I just discovered that I can't record at 24 bit :'( so I'm thinking of getting a Delta 1010. My guitar processer has 24-bit converters and coaxial digital output for recording but my soundcard can only do 16 bit. Is it worth it to upgrade? I'm sure I will very soon but I'd like to know how much difference it actually is. What about when you mix down to CD? They can only handle 16 bit. Is the quality still better?
Can anyone do a short 16 bit & 24 bit recording of maybe just a guitar (same rhythm) to show for example? Wav format. I would like to hear it.
Need advice, Dave
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If you record something like an electric guitar, with not a lot of dynamic range, then it is possible to get good recordings with either 16 or 24 bit. The difference is that 24 bit gives you a lot more leeway between the noise floor and clipping. If your soundcard can only handle 16 bit then it probably isn't designed for music recording. A newer 24 bit interface will also have better AD/DA converters, which will give you better quality sound.
The Delta 1010 is a good bang for the buck card and way better than any standard PC sound card.
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The Delta 1010 seems to be more in my price range. I went through a lot of old threads to see what others were using and Ray seems to be happy with his Delta. If I'm going to continue to record then I really have to upgrade. Midi keyboard controller and a decent drumkit is also on my list. Thanks Dave
Still would like to hear what any others have to say on this subject of 24 bit.
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The main reason I use 24 is for the headroom before clipping like Dave mentioned.
I'm not sure I can hear the difference. Just gives me a little more wiggle room when mixing and masterng.
NickT
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I had a friend over the other night who has spent time recording in a Pro studio and he says he can hear the difference. He said I can never get past demo qaulity at 16 bit. Now that's just an opinion. Maybe he's right. Maybe not. I have been able to get pretty good sound so far. Anyways, that's what got me thinking about it and realizing I only had 16 bit capability. I think I found a more affordable solution for now. I don't really need the 1010 until I get some drums.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496-main.html (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496-main.html)
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But is he hearing the difference between two files or sound cards?
Cary mentioned a card that has great ADc/DAc's thats not expensive. I can't remember, but you could pm him.
There is a difference in sound between 24 and 16...my point was I am not sold that a consumer playback product is going to show it.
Nick
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Thanks I'll ask Cary. This one has had great reviews and supposed to have great ADc/DAc's. Might be the same card. :)
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The E-MU 1212M is the card. It has 2 analog ins and outs, 8 adat optical, and SPDIF. It has midi and a built in firewire port.
The converters are 192 khz and are the same ones in the protools HD interface.
The card blows the doors off the Delta 1010lt card that I used to own. Best price I've seen is about $125. Don't be tempted to get the 0404 card. It doesn't have the nicer converters.
:)
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I owned an early Delta card and was not happy with it at all. i know people that have gotten them since and were happy . . I had major sync problems with mine. and never got much beyond that into using the A/D converters much :( Wasn't a good scene and neither was their technical support.
Think of 24 bit audio like sleeping on a nice king size bed and having room to move around, but with 16bit audio as bed that's _just_ big enough for you to sleep on comfortably.
Typical treatment for 24bit->16bit is done in mastering, start with a 24bit mix and master down to a 16bit final.
HTH
Mark
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The only problem's I've ever had with 24bit were self inflicted. In the beginning, I didn't have the drive space or resources to handle the file sizes. Which was not hard to fix. Just a little expensive.
The only time I run into problems anymore with 24bit, is when (and there are still many), folks I work with are not yet equipped with 24bit environments. And, can't use the files I provide them with.
Neither is a reason to stay in the 16bit environment. But, at least, things to consider, and tuck away in the memory bank.
I haven't used the 1010, but did take a look at it once. I used an Echo card a while back. But, was disappointed with it. Not in it's performance. But, in the way it was put together. The 1/4 jacks did not hold up. And, it didn't take long until one of them actually shorted out and blew one of my mixers. >:(
I use several M-Audio pieces of gear. Some great. Some Okay...
You're on the right road, just keep asking questions, and looking at all the solutions that or out there.
Good Luck,
BW@
BW@
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Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm leaning towards the one that Cary recommended. The E-MU 1212M. Looks pretty good. 8) Problem is finding it here in Canada. I checked out a couple of spots but no luck so far. I'll call their toll free # on Monday. I'm curious to see how much better, if any, the recordings will be with a better soundcard. I'm hoping for some improvement.
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Looks like I can get the E-Mu card in Canada no problem. $149.00 plus $20.00 shipping. Not bad. Guess I should get myself a Christmas present. :)
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I've had the 1820m card for quite a while with no problems.
I was running 24bit 48k for a while, seemed like there was a little difference but I went back to 44.1 to be compatible with S/Pdif devices I have.
I think most everyone agrees on 24bit depth now days, the sample rate seems to be a little more controversial still.
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For sampling rates it's pretty straightforward (I think anyway).
Match to your target.
If you're doing work for film, video, or DVD, record at 48Khz/96Khz -- as that matches up with the sampling rate on your end media. If you doing stuff for CD / online / general music usage record at 44.1Khz/88.2Khz.
Recording at 24bit/48Khz, if your end result is CD / MP3 you actually introduce much more potential problems as you have to get rid of 3900 samples/second (some of which might be important!) :)
Mark
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^ what he said...
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Recording at 24bit/48Khz, if your end result is CD / MP3 you actually introduce much more potential problems as you have to get rid of 3900 samples/second (some of which might be important!)
So are you saying it would be better to record 16 bit ? My end result will be CD or MP3 if I want others to hear it.
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NO. The sampling rate (44.1 or 48) is what was being pointed out.
When you read something like this: 24bit / 44.1Khz, that is telling of bit depth and sampling rate. Bit depth (in this example, 24bit) refers to the amount of steps in the amplitude (height) of the waveform. Sampling rate (44.1Khz) refers to the amount of sample per second for the waveform. In this case it's 44.1Khz means that there are 44,100 samples for each second of the waveshape.
The sampling rate for CD audio is 44.1khz. If you record in 48khz, you would have to do a sample rate conversion before having a file which would be correct for CD audio. Some think that the added benefit of recording in the higher rate is "lost' during to sample rate conversion.
16 or 24 'bit' refers to the number of steps to specify the 'amplitude' of the wave shape. 24 bit is the way to go.
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Nice explanation Cary.
Thanks 8)
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^ What he said :)
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Yes. Good explaination Cary. I'm actually starting to understand it better. Thanks guys. This is really helping. :)
Dave
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Frank had some interesting info from another board I frequent:
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Okay, Lee, here's where one of the disadvantages of having your version of Cubase rather than C4 or SX comes...you have a dithering plugin, but you don't have the superior plugin that is in the top end versions of Cubase. Anyway, here's some info:
a) Generally you should leave everything in 24 bit until you have mixed a song down to 2 tracks, have mastered it in Cubase, and are ready to export a 16 bit stereo file for CD burning. Do not dither 24 bit tracks to 16 bit until the very last; work in 24 bit or 32 bit floating point until the last possible moment
b) The dithering plugin goes in slots 7 or 8 in your Stereo master bus Inserts, not in 1-6.
c) SX and C4 owners should use the Apogee UV-22HR plugin, but you only have the UV-22, so use that, and start with the default settings.
d) Set your left and right locators correctly at the beginning and end of the 24 bit stereo file you wish to export, and in the Export dialogue, choose .wav, 16 bit, stereo interleaved.
Hope this, along with the info the others have supplied will help. Not sure why dithering etc. is not covered in your manual; it is in the SX and C4 manuals....................frank
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Have to look into the whole dithering thing (trying not to be a dithering idiot)
Never tried a plug in for going to 16bits.
Veeerrrry Interesting.
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Great !!! Now I'm confused again. ::)
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Great !!! Now I'm confused again. ::)
Understandably so.
Dither is a whole separate topic and is better discussed in its own thread.
http://www.musicianscollaboration.com/forum/index.php?topic=1121.0