Musicians Collaboration Studio
How To => Production Tips and Tricks! => Topic started by: NickT on March 25, 2007, 03:58:18 PM
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Hey all you Low Down People and Mixed up people out there! :)
I would love to hear from everyone about your Bass secrets. Both tracking and mixing.
I'll start:
Tracking. I have 3 things I alternate. One is just direct through my Soundcraft board. This has an instrument preamp in it. Or through my DMP preamp. I also like to hit it with my RNC Compressor lightly on the way in. Or I will track it through the PodXt.
Mixing. I use a lot of tricks but mostly just EQ and Compression. I may us a plug like Guitar Rig2 or Ampeg VST. i usually end up boosting 400 and 1.2k. I will also add some real low stuff around 40-50. Comp all to hell! >:D
So what do you guys and gals do?
Nick
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Bass straight into the instrument input on my interface. I usually open the track in audition and use the hard limiting plugin to take off the silly peaks. I rarely have to eq it but sometimes use a small amount of compression.
Now if I'm recording someone elses bass that's a whole different ball game ;D
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I just did a trac for the Hinterman and my current setup was
Carvin Bass -> Inspire FW Int -> Sonar
I used to do
Carvin Bass -> SWR Amp -> DI out -> Inspire FW Int -> Sonar
But I was getting some crazy ground noise so I just went direct.
I gotta say I'm so happy I did. When you have a great bass like the Carvin Icon I did not have to EQ ANYTHING! The tone that came through was defined but not harsh. I did not worry if there was not enough low end since that can be added in the mix and sometimes my recordings have been a bit too boomey. Sometimes a great sound on the amp does not translate to a great bass mix.
The only issue I had was the active preamp was a bit hot so I put the Sonitus comp inline and ran with the stock bass preset. Sounded great!
Also I now have much more appreciation for the piezo pickups in the bridge. Playing live I don't hear the piezo influence much but when recording I definitely heard the more woody tone come through. It was also easier to play harmonics. They literally poped out of the bass and that was with strings over a month old!
Sometimes I do the reamp thing so I allways try to record and unaltered track.
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Good question. I was wondering what some of the bass boys do around here for recording. Obviously the bass itself makes a difference. All I have a is Fender P Bass. It does the job but probably isn't as sweet as a Carvin. :'( Lately I've been really big on miking my amps for guitar but for bass I've found going direct has been the best.
I go straight into my Boss GT-6 with no added effects or amp models. It's used simply as a preamp. I have to turn down some of the tone controls and volume pots on the guitar itself until I get rid of any buzz. I try to keep it really clean and not too fat sounding. After recording I can then add more bottom end to the tone and that's usually done with the Helian 1st Bass VST plugin. Works like a hot damn!! 8)
Dave
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Nothing special here.
I either mic the cabs or run through a Tone Port depending on the tone I am looking for.
If I mic the cabs I get a much warmer and muddier tone, direct gives me that brighter, punchier tone.
As for getting the sound to the 'puter, I use a Tone Port UX2 and set Gear Box up so there are no amp/cab mods. I may add an effect or two but lately, if I use any effects, I have been putting my POD in-line before the TonePort for some of the effects (easier then using my effects pedals).
Since I did just get a new head I may see what happens using the DI on it into the T.P.
As for mixing, I will use either Ableton or HS4. I may add some compression, very little if any EQing, and never add effects since I record the bass with them if I use any.
Hazz
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Lots of mud here. Mexican Fender Jazz > BassPodxt > Cheap Yamaha Mixer > Sonar 3
Lately I've been trying to remember to hard (L/R) pan the model and direct signal, so the person mixing will have some options.
Jeff
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I'm recently happy with my bass sound using my Bass Vamp Pro setup to give me a fuller bottom, then into Sonar using Ampeg VST
Ray
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Interesting thread, and as I'm currently recording a bass track, very helpful.
I record direct through the Inst input of my interface. I've tried using the line out of my GK amp (which sounds very nice) but as BP stated, a good amp tone doesn't translate too good. Unless you have a very nice acoustic enviroment and a set of good mics ;).
Basically I record an unaltered take and use just as many plugins as I have :D
I may clone the track and use guitar rig on one of them and some comp (often multiband) and eq on the other. Too many tools too little time....... My main problem is not having a good bass to begin with :-[
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Good stuff here!
Keep them coming.
Nick
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For the most part it's: Bass (one of Jazz 4 string fretless, Jazz 5 string fretless, Steinberger, Olivo, MusicMan Stingray 5) -> Tascam DM24 console
Depending on the tone I'm trying to get I may end up using my Route 66 compressor/overdrive pedal (what I did for Luis' tune - Relaxed Anxiety -- and some other prog type stuff). I rarely if ever use an amp when recording, and haven't to date gotten a sound out of either a Pod or V-amp that I liked. I find that, at least with my basses, I get cleaner and fuller sound direct.
One thing that's super important to remember when recording bass ... 90% (or more!) of your tone comes from your fingers. It doesn't seem to matter what bass I play, through what amp I play (when playing live at least), I always end up with a very similar sound .. because I do what I need to at the playing level to get the sound I want. Which means playing closer or further from the bridge, tweaking volume/tone controls, etc.
For final processing I mostly just use my UAD-1 LA2A compressor set to just take off the peaks a bit, very mild compression and a bit of EQ as needed.
Call me a "purist" !! :D
Mark
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One thing that's super important to remember when recording bass ... 90% (or more!) of your tone comes from your fingers. It doesn't seem to matter what bass I play, through what amp I play (when playing live at least), I always end up with a very similar sound .. because I do what I need to at the playing level to get the sound I want. Which means playing closer or further from the bridge, tweaking volume/tone controls, etc.
What he said...
As far as my chain, that also depends on the piece, bass, mood, and how lazy or not I am at the moment..
Admittedly, I probably do 75% of my finger to string bass work through my Bass Vamp, with fairly non-intrusive settings. Maybe a bit of light compression at the other end (but not regularly) And, finally light eq to kill any sub harmonics and anything else that don't belong there...
When I record my Dean Acoustic I have to be careful of excessive string noise, it can be even more of a pain than on a regular guitar, because no one is use to hearing it. So, some extra eq might be needed. But, that's not something most of you have to worry about.
BW@
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I always end up with a very similar sound .. because I do what I need to at the playing level to get the sound I want. Which means playing closer or further from the bridge, tweaking volume/tone controls, etc.
Yes, I agree with that. Playing style has the most relevance of getting the right tone (at least for bass players, for us guitar players toying with a bass is a whole different history ;) ). Another important issue is the type of program you mix the bass with, busier mixes beeing the most difficult. I tend to use some drive to emphasize the harmonic content making the bass more intellegible in small speakers setups. That's why I may end up using two channels, one for the plugin/drive the other for the direct cleaner and usually fuller sound. Then I experiment with different blends in the mix. I'm sounding more like a whisky maker than a musician..... :D
Another question for the benefit of this thread, how do you address the bass & kick relationship?
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Kick? Whats a kick.....;)
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90% (or more!) of your tone comes from your fingers.
Mark
Fingers? What fingers? I play with a pick !!! ::) ;D
Sorry, I'm a guitar player
Dave
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Kick? Whats a kick.....;)
The kick is what ya feel in yer behind when you piss the Mrs off. ;)
Hazz
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Kick? Whats a kick.....
It's the pedal the drummer uses to try to mess with your timing ;D
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Bass for me is a last minute, addition. As such it doesn't get enough attention.
So my tracks are somewhat lacking.
I have decent monitors but they are 6" monitors and I should get a sub.
Bass is all midi for me.
I can go through the whole song with step record on hitting single notes and creating whole notes. Just whole notes is better than nothing.
I can then apply an arpeggiator to that track and create some interesting parts.
Another thing I do is to copy the lowest notes of a midi part (like a piano) and paste them into a bass track.
That same method can be done with a drum track, just highlight the kick part and copy and paste it into the bass track, makes for tight bass and drums.
I used to play a bass part on the midi guitar setup, haven't been doing that lately.
Someone told me a long time ago that the bass should be an extension of the bass drum. I guess that works on a lot of things but bass Can be a lot more.
I rented a documentary on Motown that went into the importance of bass somewhat.
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Another question for the benefit of this thread, how do you address the bass & kick relationship?
For me I think of the Kick and the bass guitar to be 2 instruments playing a duet. Depending on the type of music that can mean different things . . .
First, 2 instruments playing a duet shouldn't sound the same if you follow what I'm saying. If the kick drum is really bottom heavy then maybe you want to compromise a little on the amount of botttom on the bass, there's only so much room for everything. Same goes the other way around .. if you have a really snappy kick drum then I find that a really bitey bass maybe not be the best choice. Those 2 instruments (barring some keyboard notes) carry all the subsonics of any tune for the most part and getting them in a good balance both tone and level wise is important.
Second is dynamics. Lots of people admittedly (glances at Nick) have a tendancy to squash the hell out of a bass track. >:D Where possible I use just mild comp and a touch of limit on most bass tracks, just to keep them tamed, but I try to get the dynamics and tone right before that part of the recording .. i.e. play it consistantly and get a tone that sits well into the track without the need to squash it too heavily. Same goes for kick drum. Lots of people instatly brick wall limit and pump the hell out of a kick drum comp. Sometimes this is what you need to do, other times you just need to smooth it a little. Really squashed kick drums tend to sound like paper ... very large sounding and well eq'ed, but paper just the same. Less squashed kick drums to me carry a lot more "thump" to them in the grand scheme of things. You can also still get away with having all those nice fat low mids in kicks if you don't squash them too much, instead of the traditional scoop I see tons of people do instantly, between 200-400 or so. :D
Both of thse things are hard to do (!!!) but well worth it in the end if you can do it with the tracks you have to work with. Luckily (or not so luckily) for me I play drums and bass, and record my instruments for both .. so if something is not the way I want it I can just keep going back and taking it again :)
HTH
Mark
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Interesting thread. I've never thought of the bass and the kick working together or being an extension of the kick drum. Maybe it's just naturally played to the kick? Then again all rules are made to be broken. >:D Every song calls for something different. Sometimes the bass needs to be running all over the place and very present while at other times it just needs to be in the pocket and enhancing the rhythm. I have heard some really nice tones from a few of the guys here. It's all about the tone. ^-^
Dave
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I second the playing to the kick mentality. Notice he said playing to it not with or against it, which again is whats called for at the time and the bass players perrogative.
I tend to be a busy player because I grew up listening to people like Geddy, Rutherford, West, Entwsile and Squire. My attitude is to try and add something to the tune and not just lurk in the background. Do I pull it off? Sometimes.... Can I turn tracks around over night? Not often. Do people think it's worth the wait? Most of the time.
Also I was going to start a thread on why I hate recording but I'm lazy so I'll say it here. I hate recording to a prerecorded drum line because there is no room for tweaking the groove to make both parts gell. Many times when recording live with a real drummer we've always been able to tweak our parts like "hey go early on the kick and that will let me do this part better". I'm so used to doing that live when I record it's really frustrating.
Yea I know I'm crazy but thats what I've found.
Also when recording to a prerecorded drum line that mixed low it's hard for me to hear some things because I have crappy ears. It makes me wonder how much I use visual cues when playing live.
So recording is a love hate relationship for me. =/
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Cool thread. 8)
So here's how a backward Kansas boy does it and it's probably not the sound most of my peers are looking for. I use a 4 string Peavey Dyna bass straight into the front panel of my SoundBlaster live card. My soundman has broken me of using any of the on-board active electronics, so I record in the passive mode. Depending on the tone I need, I will use a pick for the punchy stuff and my fingers for a smooth round sound. Where I differ from most bassists is with my strings, they're between 10-15 years old, I never change them. The other way I may differ is that I don't punch in to clean up a track, I'd rather play the whole song over until I can do it clean.
I don't use any effects or compression and depending on the tune I may bump the 100HZ EQ just a touch.
My playing revolves around the kick drum, maybe a little in front of the beat to drive or a little behind it for a bluesy feel or dead on for a solid pocket.
Kick? Whats a kick.....
It's the pedal the drummer uses to try to mess with your timing ;D
Now that's funny and I'll be using that. ;D
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It's hard to do that with a drum machine or a loop. But I have struggled with this sort of thing before. The human touch.
Yea jamstix was the best investment I've ever made. It's made practicing fun again because it plays off of you. When I don't have a drummer around I opt for the jamstix.
Bassic,
I dig on your playing and toine, I would of never known your tone was from old strings through a sound blaster.
So as backup data to my point about the prerecorded drums. I'm doing a track for Hinterman andi it's got these long sections of goove where the kick is real straight on the 1st two bars and then has this triplet feel on the 2nd two. He orignally did a more drone type of bass line. Me being a busy player, I had the idea of playing a more Ralphe Armstrong (John Luc Ponty) type of groove to the triplet feel and Hinterman liked what I was doing but it was a bitch recording it because I had to ignore the kick on the 1st two bars. Had there been a real drummer, I know they would of adjusted
and things would of been fine.
On another note, Why is it I can hear very cool bass lines in my head but not articulate them well enough?
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I think it's simpler than that. I need to practice more =/
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Very interesting thread.
Getting the "right" sonic relationship between the kick and bass depends fundamentally on the timbre of the instruments to begin with. Having said that, while the "ideal" sonic co-existance between the kick and bass guitar may be perfect for one musical genre, that same sound may often not work on other genres. This is just a fact we have to accept. I tend to work more or less in the same way as Mark (Gerk) and try not to destroy the dynamics through heavy compression or brickwall limiting. I find this restrictive. Particularly in live sound, the foundation and "drive" of any song tends to come to life when the kick sits inside the pocket of the open E on a bass guitar. If you can clearly hear the punch from the kick while the bass guitar is thumping an open E (for example), then you're pretty much "there". In that respect I tend to think the kick is an extension of the bottom end of the bass guitar.
Rab 8)
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I'm doing a track for Hinterman and it's got these long sections of groove where the kick is real straight on the 1st two bars and then has this triplet feel on the 2nd two.
I can relate BP, unless I'm well rehearsed, (and there is a difference between rehearsal and practice, the former being with the group and the latter being solo without the time constraints,) Triplets give me fits unless I know where they're coming and how the players around me will interpret them.
The foundation and "drive" of any song tends to come to life when the kick sits inside the pocket of the open E on a bass guitar. If you can clearly hear the punch from the kick while the bass guitar is thumping an open E (for example), then you're pretty much "there". In that respect I tend to think the kick is an extension of the bottom end of the bass guitar.
Rab 8)
Rab, I agree (and disagree) depending on the tune.
I believe that the bass guitar can change the "feel" of a song by the subtle task of playing just in front or just behind the drummer. Let me explain, if you take a quality drum machine and set up a basic beat that is quantized to perfection, (exactly on the beat). You have the control to move any "part" of that beat forward or backward.
If you take a good drum machine and set up a simple 4/4 rock beat and move only the snare drum forward in that pattern by 5/100 of a beat, you will hear the snare drum "pushing" the tempo of the song without changing the actual tempo of the song.
Inversely, if you slow the snare by the same amount from the original beat, you will hear the snare drum "lag" behind by a smidge giving the song a blues feel.
The same effect can be accomplished with the bass guitar when the drummer is right on the beat. You spoke of the bass guitar doing what I would call "droning" one note. If that's the line you're going to play, (and there's nothing wrong with that), then I agree that it should be right in the rhyme pocket.
8)
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What a fantastic response, Preston. I know where you're coming from and couldn't agree more. Yup, it's all about "feel". The example I used where the kick can be heard distinctly over the open E demonstrates how both sounds compliment each other and their respective sonics do create that "drive" - but you're right that it all depends on the tune. :)
Rab 8)
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Agreed! Each song calls for it's own thing, and pushing or pulling the beat on the bass can make a huge difference.
Bass is just not as simple as a lot of guitar players think it is LOL. Many guitarists have a tendancy to just play the root notes below their guitar part without a lot of consideration for tone, attack, placement (ahead or behind the beat), etc. It really is an art .. a very subtle one .. to get the bass parts "just right".
This is a great thread! Hope us bassists are not giving away too many of our secrets here LOL :D
Mark
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Bass is just not as simple as a lot of guitar players think it is LOL. Many guitarists have a tendancy to just play the root notes below their guitar part without a lot of consideration for tone, attack, placement (ahead or behind the beat), etc. It really is an art .. a very subtle one .. to get the bass parts "just right".
Mark
I consider myself guitar and bass player, just hope to be out of that batch................ ;)
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Mark (Gerk) said
Agreed! Each song calls for it's own thing, and pushing or pulling the beat on the bass can make a huge difference.
Bass is just not as simple as a lot of guitar players think it is LOL. Many guitarists have a tendancy to just play the root notes below their guitar part without a lot of consideration for tone, attack, placement (ahead or behind the beat), etc. It really is an art .. a very subtle one .. to get the bass parts "just right".
This is a great thread! Hope us bassists are not giving away too many of our secrets here LOL Cheesy
Mark
Listen folks.. I posted a lot of crap here. It gone. >:D
Mark concluded very well.
I hate to be Mr. Know it all and that's why I deleted this crap.
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