Musicians Collaboration Studio
How To => Production Tips and Tricks! => Topic started by: Cary on January 12, 2007, 07:26:14 PM
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OK, here we go!
Welcome to the Musicians Collaboration Mix Clinic number 1.
Check the sticky at the top of this forum for Mix Clinic playing rules. This is all educational - there are no winners or losers.
Here are all the ape files in one RAR file: www.fullspectrumaudio.com/mix-clinic.rar
For those who need WAV, here: www.fullspectrumaudio.com/mix-clinic-wav.rar
I'm attaching the ape files in the following posts
There are 29 tracks total for the song.
You can post your mixes in this thread.
drums...
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kick, bass, and some instruments...
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more instruments...
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lead vocal and percussion...
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background vocals...
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OK. Do your best and post the mixes here. :)
Have fun!
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Glad I have ADSL, I'd hate trying the on dialup ;)
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I'd love to particapate in the next one! no time for this one
Remember you need to (ahem..) use a little pitch correction on the vocals :-[
Ray
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
oh jeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!
Brina
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Cool,
I just got home from a gig and I'm down loading the rar file.
Hope it's all there when I get up in the morning.
Ken
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So many apes, but no good for Mac monkeys :(
Andy
PS - Like I have time anyway ::)
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For those who require wavs, I'm modified the first post. The rar file is 350meg or so, but at least you can get the files.
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Thanks Cary!
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The apes all work ok for me Andy using CocoaMonkey (I verified them all locally before Cary downloaded them).
Mark
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I've never used and atuotone plug in because I sing in perfect pitch. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Anyone know of an easy to use freebie?
8)
BTW: That is one busy piece of music, but I like it.
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You guys are going to leave me in the dust on this one.
I am going to download this tonight.
Thanks for all you are doing Cary.
NickT
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I'm afraid I'll be in Nick's dust - much as I'd love to I just haven't got the time to spare at the moment. :(
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neither do I david, but loe I have already put 3 hours into it. LOL ;D
don't start -- you won't want to stop!!
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:)
David - I wish you could take a shot. There wil be more, no doubt.
I wonder who will be the first to post a mix? :)
There are so many things I'd like to discuss about the tracks and mix but I'm going to wait a bit as to not bias anyones direction.
8)
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OK - downloaded and set up.
First impression - a lot of options here.....
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Darn it, I wasn't gonna do this at all. I got about as much(or little) time as anyone here.... But, I was getting frustrated with a mix of my own, so like Pete mentioned, once I started, I couldn't stop. ::). This is kind of a feeler mix, I spent alot of time on it, but it is nowhere near complete. First off, I haven't listened to it in anything but the phones yet. Problems I know are there include some more panning needed, and I need to do some volume envelopes on a few things.
What I did do in this mix was I tried to keep it simple. I left out alot of parts, I felt too much was mudding it up too much. I decided to start with a simple acoustic and vocal only, then kicked the rest of the band in after the first chorus. I also did alot of cutting and pasting on the kick drum. I felt it needed to follow the bass alot more, especially since it is such a good bass line. I found it alot easier to hear the kick and the bass both if they followed each other more. I also extended the drums out to the end of the song. Some eq here and compression here and there, and alot of cleaning of the vocals was done also.
So as it sits, I used the acoustic guitar, and spread it out and used a 6 taps waves plug on it. I then doubled the electric rythm and panned them left and right about 50 or so to each side. I didn't do much at all with the bass, just plugged it in and pressed play. I added some junk to the drums, not alot, because there is quite a bit on them already. Mostly just compression and EQ, and some verb. I did use a bit of auto tune on the vocal, but never went through it all yet. Mostly I spent time cleaning up some of the excessive breating on the vocals :D. Ray needs to quit smoking so much ;D. I used a desseer on the lead vocal. I used a 2:1 compression at -25 db. Then I used another waves plug that is like a vocal exciter. If you have waves, it is in the audio track pulg and the setting called vocal with presence. I then added a bit of verb on it to polish it up some.
Like I say, I don't know how good it sounds really, but it rocks in my headphones, which means absolutley nothing to me, because most everything does ::). I will revisit the mix at another time, after I finish up some of my own things. Just figured I did all this work with this, I would post it to get things rolling.
Ok, now I gotta get some sleep.....
Curtis
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Okay, my friend downloaded the files for me, going to go pick them up today.
I guess I don't even want to read curtis post or listen to his mix till I do some preliminary work on my own...?
Is that the best way to go about it... get my own preliminary mix done before I start reading and listening?
Thanks
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'Scuse me for cheatin' here - but I've only bothered submitting the first part (up to the end of the first chorus) - mainly because it really sets the song up and the majority of the rest will be mixed in a similar style. And no doubt, there are going to be few handy tips - so no point in redoing everything again.
Basically, I employed pretty heavy use of Melodyne for this one.
Anyway, when you note the glaring areas that require attention - please advise.
Thanks
simon
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I've got a preliminary mix too, but there's still loads of work to do before submitting anything. This is just to get the general feel as I've not heard the song until today. I'm with Tacman on the notion of not wanting to be influenced by other mixes (or commentary) posted on a given mix. Having said that, I think the commentary and initial mixes posted will have real value to those who may feel a bit "intimidated" by the objecive set out. Nothing wrong with that at all in my book :)
It'll be interesting to hear how the all the mixes compare in due course. Until then, I'll just soldier on and see what transpires here at the dogpound.
Rab 8)
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Here's a first rough mix to present to the band. ;)
Before I take the time to polish this mix I want to know if the artists like this approach of "building" the song or if they had more of a "wall of sound" mix in mind.
In this mix I have built around the piano and vocals. The BU vocals have been layered in one at a time. I have used the Lead guitar take 2 only. If I continue with this mix I would ask the drummers permission to tame parts of the kick drum & cymbal pattern early in the song. I have not used the accoustic guitar track, the electric fill tracks or lead track 1.
This mix has no compression, some EQ work and needs more work on the lead vocals.
Let me know. 8)
BTW: I guess I'd have to buy a $14 license to use MP3's, so I'll be sending up 192 Kb WMA's.
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Alright! The mixes are coming in.
Here is my take on it. I'm pretty excited to see some of the guys had similar ideas about bulding the song up.
Now I need to listen to all these mixes.
lol
I'm going to hold off on my mix details for a few days.
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Here's a first rough mix to present to the band. ;)
Before I take the time to polish this mix I want to know if the artists like this approach of "building" the song or if they had more of a "wall of sound" mix in mind.
In this mix I have built around the piano and vocals. The BU vocals have been layered in one at a time. I have used the Lead guitar take 2 only. If I continue with this mix I would ask the drummers permission to tame parts of the kick drum & cymbal pattern early in the song. I have not used the accoustic guitar track, the electric fill tracks or lead track 1.
This mix has no compression, some EQ work and needs more work on the lead vocals.
Let me know. 8)
BTW: I guess I'd have to buy a $14 license to use MP3's, so I'll be sending up 192 Kb WMA's.
You have the freedom to do anything within the 'playing rules' If you are going to move anything around, you just need to have a good reason (for yourself) why you felt it needed to be done. That being said, one could argue any of their own 'edits' as being necessary. What makes a good mixer stand out from the rest is that when they take those liberties, the rest of the listening audience says "yeah, that sounds good!"
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Well, here's my wack at it. I've paned everything everywhere. I've upped the mids and dropped the bass and highs on the guitars. I've upped the highs and dropped the mids and bass on the vocals. The drums are as is. Built it up a bit. And I've not done anything to the pitch of the vocals. I can't that they're out. I guess it's a singers thing. Or practise. Which I've not had. So.. We'll see what you guys think. I've only listened to it through my cans so far. I don't have anything else really to listen to it on. At least, not stereo.
Dan.
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holy crap guys!!!
I'm starting fresh and haven't even gotten half way thru...
Preston, if cary says it falls with in the rulls as far as the "drummer"...go for it, its preprogrammed stuff I did myself. :D :D :D :D :D :D
Brina
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OK, sounded like good fun, so I decided to throw my hat in the ring too.
Mike
p.s., if WMA is a problem, then I can repost as MP3
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wow, this is kind cool listening to the other mixes. there are lots of similar ideas, yet several different takes too. keep em coming.
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BTW, what was the source for the drums? drum machine (808)? keyboard? Just curious, cause I'm pretty sure those are the same samples used on Joe Walsh's "Ordinary Average Guy".
Mike
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wow, this is kind cool listening to the other mixes. there are lots of similar ideas, yet several different takes too. keep em coming.
Yeah, it is cool listening to other mixes.
This is a great song.
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This may be the only chance to mix this. I have a timing issue in the solo I want to fix and didn't tune Ray.
A little different approach.
of course feedback is welcome. I am still learning the new monitors.
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I wanted to post my first take on it before I listened to other submissions.
This isn't a mix exactly, I just organized the tracks and set the levels and hit record.
Just trying to find what sort of sound it should have.
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Here's a first rough mix to present to the band. ;)
my first impressions:
your mix sounds very mono. Do you use reverb as an insert on the channel strip, or do you use it in a aux bus? Either way, it seems like the reverb return is not in stereo. Check into that.
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...Like I say, I don't know how good it sounds really, but it rocks in my headphones, which means absolutley nothing to me, because most everything does ::). I will revisit the mix at another time, after I finish up some of my own things. Just figured I did all this work with this, I would post it to get things rolling.
Ok, now I gotta get some sleep.....
Curtis
Very nice Curtis. 8)
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Well, here's my wack at it. I've paned everything everywhere. I've upped the mids and dropped the bass and highs on the guitars. I've upped the highs and dropped the mids and bass on the vocals. The drums are as is. Built it up a bit. And I've not done anything to the pitch of the vocals. I can't that they're out. I guess it's a singers thing. Or practise. Which I've not had. So.. We'll see what you guys think. I've only listened to it through my cans so far. I don't have anything else really to listen to it on. At least, not stereo.
Dan.
Dan- the lead vocal is out of sync. See if you can't straighten that out and re-post a revised mix.
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I have a timing issue in the solo I want to fix
Hey Nick, I had the same problem with the same solo, it doesn't line up like all the other tracks did. The whole track needed to be moved to line it up. So anyone else using that track, beware of it >:D. I don't remember what the name of the track was, but it is the lead that doesn't have all the extra fills in it.
Curtis
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I wanted to clarify my earlier statement.
I thought Ray did a bang up job on vox.
My comment on tuning was just that I will usually go over the tune and "touch-up" some notes that may be a little sharp or flat. I do that with everyone!
OK...I feel better!
Nick
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I have a timing issue in the solo I want to fix
Hey Nick, I had the same problem with the same solo, it doesn't line up like all the other tracks did. The whole track needed to be moved to line it up. So anyone else using that track, beware of it >:D. I don't remember what the name of the track was, but it is the lead that doesn't have all the extra fills in it.
Curtis
I noticed that track was comped or something. First half lines up after the bump, but not the second half. Plus I cut and pasted the drums in that section for flow.
nick
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I have a timing issue in the solo I want to fix
Hey Nick, I had the same problem with the same solo, it doesn't line up like all the other tracks did. The whole track needed to be moved to line it up. So anyone else using that track, beware of it >:D. I don't remember what the name of the track was, but it is the lead that doesn't have all the extra fills in it.
Curtis
I noticed that track was comped or something. First half lines up after the bump, but not the second half. Plus I cut and pasted the drums in that section for flow.
nick
Yes guys, agreed. This was the type of thing I wanted to keep the clinic from experiencing. I'm sorry about that. On the other hand, this is the exact thing that can (and does) occur when mixing stuff you didn't track yourself. Bonus points for those who noticed!
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First impressions -
Curtis- Nice mix. Lead vox seems a little harsh. 5K maybe? The rest of the mix is very smooth.
Simon- You had some fun with melodyne! Overall mix is even and nice to listen to. The drums could use some treatment, maybe even an overall drum buss comp.
Preston - The eq on the vox along with the compression is making them "Bark" a little. I would try for a little more open eq on the lead vox. The lead track is a little hot for the bed. Good start.
Cary - Very 'open' mix. The guitar treatment is nice. I find the 'fill' lead over bearing. Tasty licks for sure, just to much with the lead vox. Tones are all there and nice drum treatment.
Dan - Vox is a half measure late as mentioned by Cary. The vox get lost with all the guitars and strings going in the chorus. Drums could use some treatment or just come up. Tones are good.
Mike - Very "bold" mix. Drums are a little hot! (Of course they are! :) ) Lots of air in the mix. I like that. Nice treatment of the acoustic.
Tac - Smooth mix. Low mids might be getting a little muddy. A little busy with the oooh's in the verse.
Nice start everyone!
Nick
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Man... You guys really got a jump on this. I downloaded the tracks but haven't even looked at them. Maybe I'll get on the next one. This one's probably over my head anyways. ::)
Dave
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OK, here's my second (and hopefully final) mix. Since we're pretending to have a paying client, I'll pretend its done. 8)
anyway, on this one I mainly just fixed some more drum issues, and some dynamics/mix stuff I heard after listening to the first again. also wanted that break after the solo...
Mike
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OK, here's what I did.
From the production standpoint:
First step was to bring all the faders up and see what this song had. Wow, lots of tracks and stuff going on.
I stripped down to lead vocal and what I thought were the foundation of the song. The acoustic guitar seemed the most sensible to me, it was slightly disappointing to only have the piezo pickup to work with, but you use what you have. I have the piano in there too.
The song is a bit long, so I wanted to build the instruments - as to not show the hand all at once. The way I think of it, once everyone is playing, where do you go from there?
I brought the kick and snare in during the first chorus, ala GNR 'take me down.." lol This is where most of the drum editing was done. I really didn't want to move everything around and effectively redo the drums. Most of the drums are intact. I did mute quite a few kick drum hits though.
I comp'd the electric guitar fills track from all four tracks supplied. Not all of these tracks had the same delay and ambience - I did my best to match them when necessary.
The bass and that electric guitar strat type part starting during the second verse.
I kept the background 'oohs' out until the second chorus. I also tried to clean up that edit on the end of the line "lost those funny things" What happened there? About the middle of the song, the strings come in to support the oohs. By the last time through the chorus, I used that synth chorus track which really had me thinking Melotron.
I didn't use the percussion stuff - I was thinking more Rock song. In fact, during my subsequent listens, I'd take out that 10 second section of the bell track I used during the intro.
On the technical side;
Mixed in N-track, all free plug ins with the exception of the mastering limiter.
That kick track has tons of click and I used quite a bit of compression to try and minimize it. By adjusting the attack time, you can often squash that initial transient of the click. Using that and EQ, I got the drum to sound more 'felt beater' ish. Lol
Snare drum has Blockfish set to slam, and tons of 80's reverb.
The rest of the drums have it's own reverb sound - a small room with some damping, trying to get it to sound like a kit in an actual room.
Acoustic guitar has lots of EQ dips, about 3 db - (from memory...400hz, 2k, and 5k) The goal there was to get it sounding less piezo like. I have a touch of chorus effect on it too.
Bass guitar has some mild compression. Also a small EQ bump, +2db @ 200hz
Lead guitar fills have -10db low shelf @ 250hz
Both the piano and electric rhythm guitar parts have a nice -6db dip around 500hz or so to make some room sonically for the vocal. Also a low shelf at around 200hz to clear room for the bass guitar and kick.
Melotron Choir and Strings have -6db low shelf @ about 400hz. Huge wide reverb.
Lead vocal has lots of De-essing. I treated the track in Samplitude to do some noise reduction before bringing it into N-track. I didn't use any compression on this because the part already has lots of compression before we got our hands on it. The backing vocals were a similar situation. Eq is typical Low shelf, somewhere around @150hz or so.
From what I recall, that's about it.
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First impressions -
Cary - Very 'open' mix. The guitar treatment is nice. I find the 'fill' lead over bearing. Tasty licks for sure, just too much with the lead vox. Tones are all there and nice drum treatment.
Thank you bud! (Evil guitar has slain the vocalist yet again! lol) Perhaps, but it is what it is. The issue is one of production. I would have liked to have half of the licks, but to edit them down made them sound out of place as well. I would say it's true the only reason we were able to edit the drums down was because there was space between the notes! :)
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Man... You guys really got a jump on this. I downloaded the tracks but haven't even looked at them. Maybe I'll get on the next one. This one's probably over my head anyways. ::)
Dave
Hey Dave, please don't think this way man. Get in there... there's no time limit! :)
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Dan - Vox is a half measure late as mentioned by Cary. The vox get lost with all the guitars and strings going in the chorus. Drums could use some treatment or just come up. Tones are good.
Yeah, I was wondering if the vocals were out of line, I should have tried to fix em up a bit more.
I was having trouble with the vox, 'cause of all the spikes in the track. It was making it hard for me to put the volume up. I'll see what I can do.
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holy crap you guys are on second mixes...
and i'm not even done eq'ing yet....BLAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH
Brina
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I think I'm going to have a go at mixing this too - just to make sure all amateurs are represented. :)
I should have something finished by...let's see...this time next year perhaps.
It sounds like fun though, and I'm sure to learn somehting along the way.
Andy
PS - an overnight download job methinks!
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Mix Number two. Hopefully I've got everything this time. Undrowned the vocals... I've upped the volume of the drums. And dropped the volume of few other things. And set it so some of the instruments don't come in till later. See what you think. Fed back is good.
Dan.
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Maybe I'll pass on this one - 339MB to download :o
Andy
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Maybe I'll pass on this one - 339MB to download :o
Andy
Oh well. Maybe next time they'll have a few less tracks to play with ;)
Dan.
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Ok,
Here's my "first" run....
got some things to iron out after asking a few questions...THANKS NICK!!
but thought I'd at least show there's some progress.......its not that great..but well...(((shrug)))
Brina
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OK,
I no longer have the loudest mix. I would venture one of the quietest.
This is basically the same mix. I used different mastering tools and have just been beat up elsewhere about my volume...I truly tried to get a balance of level versus fidelity. Dynamic range instead of monkey brains.
Edit: I want to clear this post up. I have participated in a few clinics on another site. Although I thought my mixes were good, the only real comments I received were how loud and aggressive it was. So I thought I would try a different approach.
I like loud and aggresive...but wanted to let the mix stand a little more on it's own.
The timing is still off.
Let me know what you think! :)
Nick
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Mike - I like it. You've got it dialed in. Nice work.
Dan - Much better mix. I think you could push the overall level a little.The vox "Bark"...eq and comp? you hear the first one at 00:47 "I can..." I like the placement and tone of the mix.
Brina The elements are all there. I am not sure but you seem to be low-mid heavy. Makes the mix a little muddy. Vox also. What I said in the chat about pulling the low and low mids back a little in the guitars holds true for the other tracks. Cymbal Crashes still hot!. Overall the levels are good. Do you do a tune-up every now and then. Take a break from the mix and play a commercial song in the genre. Then go back to your mix.
Nick
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Dan - Much better mix. I think you could push the overall level a little.The vox "Bark"...eq and comp? you hear the first one at 00:47 "I can..." I like the placement and tone of the mix.
I'll have a look, what you prolly hear is: I went through and dropped the volume through the spikes, to try and level it out. So I didn't clip so much. Which it was doing a lot... Still is.. I don't know any other way of smoothing that out...
Thanks!
Dan.
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Ok,
Here's my "first" run....
got some things to iron out after asking a few questions...THANKS NICK!!
but thought I'd at least show there's some progress.......its not that great..but well...(((shrug)))
Brina
Why don't you think it's great? Perhaps you can share what you're having problems with, and also what YOU believe is right.
Listening to your mix, I only have issues with the levels of the drum components - cymbals too loud, toms not loud enough, etc. You're certainly in the ballpark though, so that's a good thing.
As I said before, perhaps you can share the parts that you're having trouble with and some of the other may offer good advice.
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I've polished this up a bit and listened to it for a couple of days and I think I'm ready to post with some questions.
I've put several other mixes on my desktop and listened to them quit a bit and I've tried to get the vocal quality that I'm hearing from Curtis, Nick and Cary's mixes. I read Curtis post about exciters and deessers so I downloaded a demo exciter and didn't like what I got from it. (Yea, I read the manual). I wasn't about to pay $145 for the full version; I just don't process vocals that much.
What are you guys using to process the vocals?
I got a freebie Master Limited from Cary some time ago that I use a lot, I'm hoping there is an exciter out there that's either free or costs much less.
I tried to match the vocal quality through compression an EQ in n-track. I used a tip I learned from EPS and stripped the verb from the vocals and used a Quick delay to fatten them just a bit. I could live with this mix but if I could improve the lead vocal some more, I would.
I got the drum track to my liking through some cut & paste work.
Let me know. 8)
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I've polished this up a bit and listened to it for a couple of days and I think I'm ready to post with some questions.
I've put several other mixes on my desktop and listened to them quit a bit and I've tried to get the vocal quality that I'm hearing from Curtis, Nick and Cary's mixes. I read Curtis post about exciters and deessers so I downloaded a demo exciter and didn't like what I got from it. (Yea, I read the manual). I wasn't about to pay $145 for the full version; I just don't process vocals that much.
What are you guys using to process the vocals?
I got a freebie Master Limited from Cary some time ago that I use a lot, I'm hoping there is an exciter out there that's either free or costs much less.
I tried to match the vocal quality through compression an EQ in n-track. I used a tip I learned from EPS and stripped the verb from the vocals and used a Quick delay to fatten them just a bit. I could live with this mix but if I could improve the lead vocal some more, I would.
I got the drum track to my liking through some cut & paste work.
Let me know. 8)
Hey Preston. I listened to this latest mix. For sound quality, I like the first one better.
This is just my opinion, but it is one shared with MANY pro mixers. I'd stay away from exciters like BBE and others. You can get perfectly fine sounding mixes without the use of them. They do have their place, but at this stage in the game...they will do far more damage than good.
Here's a tip that I got many years back. It's a gem and makes plenty of sense when you think about it. In a song where the vocal is the focus, do as little EQ as possible to the track. In this case it's typical to have some low shelf to do away with pops and rumble which are not parts of the character of a vocal track anyway. For example, try -8db at around 150 to 200hz. If you adjust the cutoff frequency while listening to the track, you'll hear a point where the body of the vocal starts to sound too thin. The object is to keep as much of the meat of the vocal sound while cutting the low end. Now that you have the vocal track close, work the rest of the music around that. Many try to fit the vocal into a huge sounding music track. I think it makes more sense to work the important instruments first, in this case, the vocal and then the music foundation (drums, bass, and guitars)
Are you mixing in N-track? What reverb plugin are you using? oops...i see you're using N-track and no reverb. I'm not going to challenge anyone elses advice, but to answer your question, I used EQ and reverb only on my mix.
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I'm not going to challenge anyone elses advice, but to answer your question, I used EQ and reverb only on my mix.
On your mix or just the vox?
Vox - I compressed to -6 db (Thanks Cary) ran a fake EMT plate reverb (Cakewalk FxVerb) and an analog delay set to tempo. I have to check on the eq. Maybe some 100 hz @ -4 with a Q of 1.4 (my usual starting point) But I may not have used eq at all on this vox.
nick
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So much technical stuff! I just use my ear, 'cause I can't find half that stuff on my software...
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Yes, this is all too tech for me.
Vox - I compressed to -6 db ???
ran a fake EMT ??? plate reverb (Cakewalk FxVerb)
Maybe some 100 hz ??? @ -4 ??? with a Q ??? of 1.4 ???
Causes my eyes to glaze over...and I can't control the yawning. :)
I think some of us ain't meant to be mixers.
Jeff
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For the record, I hardly ever use the exciter plug-in, actually, this was the first time I have used it, and I used it very sparingly. I think the common thing that Nick, and Cary, and I have used on the vocal is some compression. I believe I compressed it at 2:1 at -25 or so, don't really remember. I haven't had time to listen to alot of the mixes, but I remember(I think it was Dan) saying he had to use volume envelopes on the vocal to keep things from clipping. Well, a bit of compression will help that alot. I wouldn't worry about messing with an exciter Preston, 'cuz like Cary says, they aren't necessary hardly at all, only for a certain thing sometimes, and what I was looking for was just a little more depth to the vocal. I think I used so little of it that it didn't make much of a difference anyway. The most important thing is the eq and the compression, and the eq will be a bit different in everyones mixes, because it has to blend with YOUR mix. And each vocal will require different things. I hardly ever mix anyones vocals except for mine, so I tried a whole different approach on Rays vocals, because the things I do with my vocal just didn't work for his. That is why I used the exciter, I guess I was just searching for something different, because Rays vocal is different than mine. Each mix is different, so different type of things are needed. Each vocal is different so different things are needed there also. Just experiment with different things to see what works in your mix.
Curtis
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For the record, I hardly ever use the exciter plug-in, actually, this was the first time I have used it, and I used it very sparingly. I think the common thing that Nick, and Cary, and I have used on the vocal is some compression. I believe I compressed it at 2:1 at -25 or so, don't really remember. I haven't had time to listen to alot of the mixes, but I remember(I think it was Dan) saying he had to use volume envelopes on the vocal to keep things from clipping. Well, a bit of compression will help that alot. I wouldn't worry about messing with an exciter Preston, 'cuz like Cary says, they aren't necessary hardly at all, only for a certain thing sometimes, and what I was looking for was just a little more depth to the vocal. I think I used so little of it that it didn't make much of a difference anyway. The most important thing is the eq and the compression, and the eq will be a bit different in everyones mixes, because it has to blend with YOUR mix. And each vocal will require different things. I hardly ever mix anyones vocals except for mine, so I tried a whole different approach on Rays vocals, because the things I do with my vocal just didn't work for his. That is why I used the exciter, I guess I was just searching for something different, because Rays vocal is different than mine. Each mix is different, so different type of things are needed. Each vocal is different so different things are needed there also. Just experiment with different things to see what works in your mix.
Curtis
(yeah it was me with the volume envelopes) I think I do have comp on the Vocals, but it was still clipping a lot. But I'll check it out. Thanks for the tips.
Dan.
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Ok,
Here's my "first" run....
got some things to iron out after asking a few questions...THANKS NICK!!
but thought I'd at least show there's some progress.......its not that great..but well...(((shrug)))
Brina
Why don't you think it's great? Perhaps you can share what you're having problems with, and also what YOU believe is right.
Listening to your mix, I only have issues with the levels of the drum components - cymbals too loud, toms not loud enough, etc. You're certainly in the ballpark though, so that's a good thing.
As I said before, perhaps you can share the parts that you're having trouble with and some of the other may offer good advice.
Thanks Cary,
Well, for starters I'm a perfectionist so I hear things that I know could be better, but just don't have a clue how to.
Talked with Nick in chat and my biggest problem to me was getting the thumpyness out of the lead guitar tracks, that 'wacking" noise for lack of better terms..... I spent alot of time trimming ray's vocal to take some of the semblance out before de-essing it. The panning is throwing me off, I can hear in my head where I would like everything to sit but once I start layering things in it tends to muddle up. Especially in when the background vocals come in.....
I'm gonna take another go at it concentrating on some drum compression and some editing of the "cymbals - yes NICK the bridge".....
just flying by the seat of my pants mostly.....but its good practice...
and I am enjoying it more than I had expected.....just a little bummed at how long its taking me to grasp some of the "theories".... now give me a live sound system and we've got a whole different story
Brina
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I'm not going to challenge anyone elses advice, but to answer your question, I used EQ and reverb only on my mix.
On your mix or just the vox?
nick
Yes, the vocal.
What are you guys using to process the vocals?
:)
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Yes, this is all too tech for me.
Vox - I compressed to -6 db ???
ran a fake EMT ??? plate reverb (Cakewalk FxVerb)
Maybe some 100 hz ??? @ -4 ??? with a Q ??? of 1.4 ???
Causes my eyes to glaze over...and I can't control the yawning. :)
I think some of us ain't meant to be mixers.
Jeff
You all sound so great that it's easy for me to forget everyone isn't a tech.
I do try to throw out useful numbers and suggestions. But Cary was right when he asked for what some of you are having difficulty with. It will all help in the end!
Nick
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OK, here's what I did.
Lead vocal has lots of De-essing. I treated the track in Samplitude to do some noise reduction before bringing it into N-track.
OK, I am paying attention.
Now I'll Google "Samplitude"
I'm working on a new/old mix. 8)
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Here's a tip that I got many years back. It's a gem and makes plenty of sense when you think about it. In a song where the vocal is the focus, do as little EQ as possible to the track. In this case it's typical to have some low shelf to do away with pops and rumble which are not parts of the character of a vocal track anyway. For example, try -8db at around 150 to 200hz. If you adjust the cutoff frequency while listening to the track, you'll hear a point where the body of the vocal starts to sound too thin. The object is to keep as much of the meat of the vocal sound while cutting the low end. Now that you have the vocal track close, work the rest of the music around that. Many try to fit the vocal into a huge sounding music track. I think it makes more sense to work the important instruments first, in this case, the vocal and then the music foundation (drums, bass, and guitars)
I'm still paying attention.
Thanks Cary, this will go into the "saved" stack. 8)
Now for the hard part, trying to apply it to my mix. ;)
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What the hell was I thinking when I opened this package up. ::) Man!!! This is a tough mix. I'm half way into it so I hope this clinic goes on for awhile. There is sooo much that needs fixing. It could take a few days to get a decent mix. :o
Not sure if I can produce anything but I'll give it a go.
Dave
PS Are all the lead guitar tracks clipping like that? Those are the originals? If they are they're VERY hard to fix. Realistically should be replayed with no clipping. The playing is good, the clippings not. ???
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What the hell was I thinking when I opened this package up. ::) Man!!! This is a tough mix. I'm half way into it so I hope this clinic goes on for awhile. There is sooo much that needs fixing. It could take a few days to get a decent mix. :o
Not sure if I can produce anything but I'll give it a go.
Dave
PS Are all the lead guitar tracks clipping like that? Those are the originals? If they are they're VERY hard to fix. Realistically should be replayed with no clipping. The playing is good, the clippings not. ???
Yeah, those guitars are a bit of a pain. I found the clipping can't be heard in the mix. But it's still annoying.
A few days? Man, now I'm wondering where I went wrong, it only took me about 6 hours to get to my stage... Well, I guess that could be counted as taking a few days...... ;D But it's great fun to mix Dave! So much to play with, you can do all sorts with it!
Dan.
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OK Been mixing all night and just had to listen to some of the mixes here. I've taken a totally different approach than everyone else. Hope to post something soon. Just listening to Brina's as I'm typing. LOL You like them crashes do ya !!! haha.. ;D Funny how everyones different. Curtis is really heavy on the vocals. You'll find that I put more lead guitar in. Nick's sounds the best. Bugger !!! Like I said, hope to post something soon. ::)
Dave
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OK Been mixing all night and just had to listen to some of the mixes here. I've taken a totally different approach than everyone else. Hope to post something soon. Just listening to Brina's as I'm typing. LOL You like them crashes do ya !!! haha.. ;D Funny how everyones different. Curtis is really heavy on the vocals. You'll find that I put more lead guitar in. Nick's sounds the best. Bugger !!! Like I said, hope to post something soon. ::)
Dave
Looking forward to hear yours! More lead, I didn't think you could stick much more in than I did :D But we'll see.
I wonder why Nick's sounds the best... 8)
Dan.
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...Funny how everyones different. Curtis is really heavy on the vocals. You'll find that I put more lead guitar in. Nick's sounds the best...
I wonder why Nick's sounds the best... 8)
Ok guys. Liking it is one thing, judging is another. We're trying to learn here. Please explain what it is about Nick's that makes it best.
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Bonus question:
What was wrong with the vocal track? No offense Ray - your performance is wonderful.
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Bonus question:
What was wrong with the vocal track? No offense Ray - your performance is wonderful.
Some transient spikes hit 0. Leads me to believe there was a brickwall catching the spikes. The noise floor below 40hz is pretty high.
Track clips at "I could understand..."
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...Funny how everyones different. Curtis is really heavy on the vocals. You'll find that I put more lead guitar in. Nick's sounds the best...
Ok guys. Liking it is one thing, judging is another. We're trying to learn here. Please explain what it is about Nick's that makes it best.
I am glad you guys like the mix. I would really love some feedback as to anything that makes this mix "good" and if you hear anything that shouldn't be in there. I am trying to get used to my room, so the comments would really help.
I wonder why Nick's sounds the best... 8)
This is a great opportunity to do what I do. I pick Cary's brain and try his "suggestions". We are lucky to have a resource with the information that Cary has. So if something is giving you a hard time, post it and let's all learn a little something.
Nick
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Bonus question:
What was wrong with the vocal track? No offense Ray - your performance is wonderful.
Some transient spikes hit 0. Leads me to believe there was a brickwall catching the spikes. The noise floor below 40hz is pretty high.
Track clips at "I could understand..."
nope. :)
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Is it that he sings en-ti-re-ly, instead of en-tire-ly? >:D Nothing wrong with it I suppose, I just found it an odd pronuciation :).
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Like Cary said, Ray's vocal is wonderful. When it comes to the "what's wrong" part of the question, there appears to be some limiting (where we can see the audio sometimes flat-topping at the loudest peaks) and can hear the dynamic range being crushed at these points. However, this problem is far more obvious with some of the electric guitar tracks. Limiters are great tools and can be a recording engineers best friend. None of them are created equal, so it can take a bit of practice to get to know them - and to make them do their job "well". Addressing questions like the one posed will improve the mixing process and therefore the clarity of the mix. It may be an idea in the future to run "recording clinics" to help the guys and girls improve their track recording techniques so that their mixes benefit big time in the future. This is where the process begins, so I propose to Cary the possibility of developing this idea in the future.
As for my own mix, I'll have something up at the weekend (Saturday latest).
As usual..... I've been back to edit my typos and grammar errors ;D
Cheers,
Rab 8)
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ok, first impression... the two cymbal tracks are exactly the same
knowing Cary... the vocal track has an (obvious) edit somewhere.
won't get into clipping, compression, fx and/or quality of tracks, but i think, after this is done, if it's ok w/ the trackers, we should use this song for a recording clinic/discussion where we talk about what was done and possible alternatives/improvements.
as far as taking more time than others, or not wanting to get into too many technical details... don't let these things stop you. it's not a race. and fwiw, i do things by trial 'n error and feel. tech knowledge is not necessary.
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Ok guys. Liking it is one thing, judging is another. We're trying to learn here. Please explain what it is about Nick's that makes it best.
Not judging. Just comparing. Maybe I shouldn't have listened to the different takes before I put mine up. :) Sometimes it's like comparing apples to oranges. Depends on what you want. I actually shouldn't have said Nick's is the best since I haven't listened to them all including yours Cary. Nick just seems to get this full and VERY clear sound. I don't know how the hell he does it. It's good model to go by. I was listening to mine all night and wanted the acoustic to stand out more and not be so buried in there but couldn't quite do it. Then I listened to Nick's before going to bed last night and heard his version where the acoustic stands out, the lead guitar sounds great (bright). The vocals sound full and the drums are very present. It's just a very clear mix. I'll try to work a bit on mine some more tonight and see if I can get something up. Feedback is needed as well as explainations on how they achieved what they did.
The other thing I notice about Nick's mixes is he doesn't seem to get biased towards one thing or another. Being a guitar player I tend to focus on the guitars too much. Vocalist's tend to focus on the vocals. Same with drummers and keyboard players. I see that often. It's good to go at it with keeping in mind the music as a whole.
I will continue to mix. :)
Dave
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Bonus question:
What was wrong with the vocal track? No offense Ray - your performance is wonderful.
I also noticed that the vocal track had been, limited? compressed? squashed? hit a brick wall? in many spots. I still needed to put some slight compression on it to help in the high spots.
These are very challenging tracks :o
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ok, first impression... the two cymbal tracks are exactly the same
hahaha. True!
knowing Cary... the vocal track has an (obvious) edit somewhere.
I'm not sure how long I'll let this go before spilling the beans. :)
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There was a spike in the main vocal track. I had to take it out. A POP !!
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give those of us that are late to the party a chance to listen before you spill any beans
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give those of us that are late to the party a chance to listen before you spill any beans
Not a diss of any kind, but those with experience would hear this right away.
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There's a wierd warble @ 56:58 "If it was her lips" Actually anywhere in the song that says "was her lips"
Is that an edit job?
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nope, no diss taken. just haven't listened to it yet
ok, after skimming through the thread, are you talking about this:
I also tried to clean up that edit on the end of the line "lost those funny things" What happened there?
and, by all means, if you wanna spill the beans, that's ok.
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nope, no diss taken. just haven't listened to it yet
ok, after skimming through the thread, are you talking about this:
I also tried to clean up that edit on the end of the line "lost those funny things" What happened there?
and, by all means, if you wanna spill the beans, that's ok.
nope, that's in the backing vocals.
ok....
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Listening to Ray's raw vocal track, I noticed he was nailing notes spot on, and missing some completely. When I reached the end of the first chorus, I distinctly heard Autotune mis-tracking. When I looked at the tracking in Autotune (graphical mode) I could see instances where the vocal notes were jumping to notes that were not in the scale. It then occurred to me that the track was processed in Auto mode, chromatic.
The problem with this is the following: If by chance you are slightly flat or sharp, Autotune will correct the note to the closest note in the allowable range. If you're set to Chromatic, it's very possible for F# to come out as F natural. This usually only happens during faster note passages because the singer is moving past the notes much faster. Take a listen to the last line in the first chorus, "well I never want to lose those funny things..." (This is at about 0:50 seconds into the song) Ray is a better singer than what you hear on the passage. It's just that Auto tune took him way off the mark.
Not that I'd ever recommend using Auto mode in Autotune, however if you did, it's much better to set the key of the song - in this case G major. If you have a case of the singer singing some blues rifs, then you can add the notes required. The best way to do tuning is to only fix the notes that need it. Oh, and use Graphical mode!
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lol... just listened (before reading the last post) and didn't even notice that.
thanks
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I'm glad you explained that, Cary. I'm not a big fan of auto-tune myself and was a bit puzzled in the way the signal was being modulated on Ray's lead vocal track. It didn't sound like a "proper" auto-tune (whatever that "should" sound like). I could see on-screen when examining the file and I honestly thought it was some really bad artifact that was destroying the clarity of the track. Ray's a very good vocalist [as I've complimented him in the past].. he doesn't "need" auto-tune, but each to their own I suppose. :)
Rab 8)
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I wonder why Nick's sounds the best... 8)
Ok guys. Liking it is one thing, judging is another. We're trying to learn here. Please explain what it is about Nick's that makes it best.
Gee wiz, I was joking 'K? lol, I wasn't judging. I'm not sure why I said it.. It was late at night... Sorry. And I am learning heaps. Thanks for doing this, it is great fun.
Dan.
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Listening to Ray's raw vocal track, I noticed he was nailing notes spot on, and missing some completely. When I reached the end of the first chorus, I distinctly heard Autotune mis-tracking. When I looked at the tracking in Autotune (graphical mode) I could see instances where the vocal notes were jumping to notes that were not in the scale. It then occurred to me that the track was processed in Auto mode, chromatic.
The problem with this is the following: If by chance you are slightly flat or sharp, Autotune will correct the note to the closest note in the allowable range. If you're set to Chromatic, it's very possible for F# to come out as F natural. This usually only happens during faster note passages because the singer is moving past the notes much faster. Take a listen to the last line in the first chorus, "well I never want to lose those funny things..." (This is at about 0:50 seconds into the song) Ray is a better singer than what you hear on the passage. It's just that Auto tune took him way off the mark.
Not that I'd ever recommend using Auto mode in Autotune, however if you did, it's much better to set the key of the song - in this case G major. If you have a case of the singer singing some blues rifs, then you can add the notes required. The best way to do tuning is to only fix the notes that need it. Oh, and use Graphical mode!
Well, I'd never have worked that out. the only thing I noticed was the spiking. I'll have to listen again and see if I can spot it.
Dan.
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Gee wiz, I was joking 'K? lol, I wasn't judging. I'm not sure why I said it.. It was late at night... Sorry. And I am learning heaps. Thanks for doing this, it is great fun.
Dan.
Thats cool man.. I know you were kinda joking, but it's still a good idea to tell us why it sounds better. See, what I'm looking for is what we hear as 'good' Then maybe its something we can figure out how to obtain. 8)
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I assume that's why I hear a slight woobling (warbling) effect on some words. From autotune? ???
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Well started playing with the tracks, well track so far.
Did the vocal and made a stereo lead vocal track with a little reverb.
Going to try making sub mixes.
Read about that and wanted to try it.
Slowly getting there.
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Here is my next mix, I am want to know what you all think. I think I got one more mix left in me for this, then I'm gonna put it down as finished for me. So give me what you think, and I will make one more mix and call it good. In this mix I did some more eq on the lead vocal as Nick mentioned, then I did some work on the leads, added a few more parts, and panned it a bit. I took all 3 lead parts, then used Har-Bal and tried to match them all up so they had the same eq/tone and such, then tried to match up the effects on each one, so as to make it sound like one lead track, instead of 3 different ones. I ended up using parts from all 3 tracks. That's pretty much it.
Curtis
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OK, Here's my first preliminary mix. The hardest part for me is the vocals. I always have difficulties in that area. I've basically boosted the bass guitar. Tried to make it beefier. Slightly panned the keys and acoustic L & R. Not much editing on the drums. Took out some crashes in the lead guitar part. Put in lots of lead guitar. (What can I say, I'm a guitarist) :D I wanted to use one of those tracks that was clipping all over the place so I had to do some major compressing, eq'ing, resampling and all kinds of things to get it to sound somewhat normal. Panned the backing vocals. Some are center, some are panned about 30% and some are panned about 69%. L & R.
Criticism is welcome. Remember this is NOT my forte' ::)
Dave
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Ok,
Here's another go, worked with some of the drums...smashed the crap out of them. Took Nicks advice on the eq of the guitars....still not happy they sound harsh compared to everything else to me....
Played with some different plug ins.....not sure if the drums are still too loud or not..but I'm liking the placement better....
let me have it
Tech wise, couldnt tell you everything except a little of this and a little of that......I'll take some time write it down when I look at the project again to morrow....been on this too long tonight already.
Brina
PS..I wanna know how to get the bass to sound like Dave's!!!!!!!!...
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;D Sorry but I have to laugh that everyone starts out the song differently. Kinda cool how everyone has a different vision as to how the song should be. Shows there's no right or wrong.
Curtis, You have a cool version. Not sure how you got that electric rhythm guitar to work. I couldn't :o
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Your sounds quite good Dave, I can't say I was really really listening to it. I was doing other stuff. But nothing jumped out at me, so it's not to bad ;)
Now to listen to Brina's.
Dan.
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Brina. I used a plugin by Helian called First Bass. One of the best plugins I've found so far for bass guitar. Works great !! You can find it here.
http://www.gersic.com/plugins/index.php?searchFor=first+bass&Submit=Submit&action=1
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I assume that's why I hear a slight woobling (warbling) effect on some words. From autotune? ???
Yes, exactly.
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I worked on the vocals with some detail editing, then it was recorded to a stereo track with fx and compression.
I made a stereo track with the piano, and two rhythm guitars, maybe a mistake, hard to tell, I get shell shock after a while.
Takes me a few days for me to tell if I even like what I did.
Haven't got to the end of the song yet.
http://tacman7.com/MC2ndTac.wma
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Here is my next mix, I am want to know what you all think. I think I got one more mix left in me for this, then I'm gonna put it down as finished for me. So give me what you think, and I will make one more mix and call it good. In this mix I did some more eq on the lead vocal as Nick mentioned, then I did some work on the leads, added a few more parts, and panned it a bit. I took all 3 lead parts, then used Har-Bal and tried to match them all up so they had the same eq/tone and such, then tried to match up the effects on each one, so as to make it sound like one lead track, instead of 3 different ones. I ended up using parts from all 3 tracks. That's pretty much it.
Curtis
In my opinion, you did a real fine job with this. Your first mix was real nice and this one is certainly better. There's always a chance my headphones are fooling me, but I don't think so.
You took off some of the hype on the lead vocal? It sounds very nice. I love the treatment on the drums - lots of kick and snare, and the toms are huge. I'd like to hear some of your drum processing details. You've got a great balance on all the other instruments too. You've done well to make the stuff that was an issue, not an issue. I listen to this and no alarms go off.
Bravo!
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Thanks Cary, as for the lead vocal, the main thing I did different was use Nick's advice and cut the eq at 5k some, taking the edge off it some.
I will try to explain what things I did with the drums, but it is kinda hard to not be technical. I use mainly the plug-in's that come with Adobe Audition, and alot of waves plugs. I use alot of presets, then I tweek with them until I think it sounds good. I will try to explain what plugs I used, and some of the settings I have them on....
The snare...
I use a waves compression plug called RComp. Setting I used with it are, Attack 50ms, Release 50.2ms Ratio 20.05
Eq...+18 at 50hz, +18 at 100hz, +6.65 at 200hz
Reverb...I use a unit called Anwidasoft LIV. Settings are at 29 Predelay, 1100 Decay, and a LP cut at 16000, with a Dry mix at 35%
Audition has a setting called Pan/Expand, it is used mainly for vocals, but I use it on alot of things, hardly ever on vocals, except for backing vocals, I have it set on 240, where 100 is centered.
The kick...
On the kick I used the same exact settings as the snare, but I ran all the effects with 100% dry out mix, so like I say, the same settings, but alot more of the dry mixed in. By moving alot of the kick hits around, I was trying to make it gel with the bass, and I think that helped to bring out both the kick and the bass guitar. I made it so they followed each other, which made them feed off each other rather then fight against each other.
The Toms got the same effects also, and like the kick, I mixed in 100% dry out with them. I panned them both +10 and -10 in the mix, then I used some volume envelopes on a few of them to tame them down a bit.
The closed hats...
I just used the same reverb unit, and mixed them at 30% with decay of 400, and a LP cut at 16000
The maracas....
I used a waves plug called 6 Taps. What that does is pretty much spread it out in 6 parts, but I only used 3 parts of it, one centered, and the other 2 spread out + and - 45, with a small amount of delay on each. I then used the same reverb unit with 400 decay, LP cut at 2500, and a 50% dry mix.
The high agogo....
I used an adobe compression plug. It is set with an output gain of 12db, Attack time of 30ms, release time of 15ms. It has a high cutoff at 24000hz. I then used the pan/expand plug at 240 where 100 is centered.
The crashes...
First I split the crashes up, making a left crash and a right crash. I put a bit of reverb and echo on both, a little high end boost on both of them, and panned them -10 and +10. On the right crashes I added the pan/expand plug, to make the right crashes sound a bit fuller then the left, making them sound a bit different.
Those are the only drums and percussion tracks I used. I could have used more, but they sounded pretty good to me with just those, so I left well enough alone 8).
Curtis
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Thanks Curtis!
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Now it's time to present my mix :)
Sorry it's a web link because I can't figure how to upload tracks here at the moment. I'm sure someone will post something to help me in that department. I'm afraid "normal" idiot-guides haven't taken me into account yet :D
It's a far-from-perfect mix... but I said I'd have it here for Saturday (latest).
EDIT --- Please go to my next post. Dan helped me with my little file transfer problem.
I'll post the details of the approach I took and all the usual technical stuff once I type it up. Just wanted to make sure you got the mix today.
Rab 8)
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Sorry it's a web link because I can't figure how to upload tracks here at the moment. I'm sure someone will post something to help me in that department.
Rab 8)
Under the box which you type the text in, is a button labelled "Additional Options..." Click that and it'll give you the options for uploading files.
Cheers, Dan.
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Thanks, Dan :D
If the "additional options" text was a different color saying something like "click here for additional options", it would have been a bit easier for me. See what I mean about "normal" idiot-guides haven't taken me into account yet. ;D
Thanks again, Dan. It appears to have worked ;)
Rab 8)
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Thanks, Dan :D
If the "additional options" text was a different color saying something like "click here for additional options", it would have been a bit easier for me. See what I mean about "normal" idiot-guides haven't taken me into account yet. ;D
Thanks again, Dan. It appears to have worked ;)
Rab 8)
Haha, no probs, glad to be of some help 8)
Dan.
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I loved this song when it first got put up and Brina was throwing mixes at us ;D
I just couldn't help it, I had to have a shot at it.
Here's my first mix, no real vocal processing yet but everything is pretty much in place.
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Mix Clinic 1 -- Funniest Things - Dogbizkits Mix 1
OK, here it is. I'll try to be short and sweet with the approach taken:
The first thing I did was to open everything up and do a rough balance to hear exactly what was on offer and to get a "gut feeling" of the way this one could go. Deciding to go for a big mix as opposed to a compact one with less tracks, I knew it would also need to be a "neutral" mix with nothing hyped.
After a series of critical listens to find the bits that had to go, I did a close inspection of all the tracks to get rid of any "anomalies" such as bumps, squeeks, farts [yes it does happen] - also paying attention to premature vocal cut-offs (as we noticed on the backing vocals) plus the usual guitar tail-offs that over-run their time and walk over "other" parts AND also to check out that the tracks were actually in-sync.
The track cleaning and alignment [prepping] process is a big time consuming job - but at the end of the day it seems (to me at least) to have worked out reasonably well.
To me, the song wanted to go into "launch mode" right after a short guitar / vocal intro. In my head I could hear a fairly "full" sound using most of the tracks supplied - so went with that general feel. I didn't go for anything radical in as much as adding extra drum parts or hyping anything, because (to me), the component parts were basically OK so didn't want to tamper with things to the point that would have changed the character of something I felt was already good (although some of the brickwall-limited and distorted guitar parts would need to be surgically removed.
Just a quick point that's a fact on Ray's vocal track. It's essential to get a "dry" vocal track. As for any track, a pre-processed one can be a nightmare for the mix engineer [who probably has better kit at his/her disposal to "fix" the vocals]. As long as the track has been recorded properly, there's usually no problems. I like Ray's voice just fine the way it is and it would have been great to get his track completely dry and unprocessed. I digress.
Once all the prep-work was done, I could start to use the DSP's to allocate the buss plugins and select the relevant channel plugins. The main mix was going to be done entirely inside the box. The only external gear used was a TC Finalizer 96K for mastering. This was used very gently because I don't like to do "loud" or "maximised level" mixes that keep the needles pinned to the red (as they say). In the master, I aimed for the 12db or 14db peak-to-average level as recommended by Bob Katz for a "radio play" level that wouldn't be crushed by the stations compressors.
To get everything cooking in the mix, I use two TC Powercore DSP's and a collection of voice channel plugins to handle EQ, compression/limiting. Alongside those, I use Waves plugins for individual instrument [track] processing. Everything was routed to the relevant buss's to make the mix more manageable on its way to the main stereo outs. The specifics of plugins and particularly the settings used would be exhaustive here, but I'd be happy to answer any questions in that area if asked.
Of course, the mix is far from perfect (and no automation used) - but it's a fair representation of what I'd encourage the "client" to go for. I know exactly which way I'd have gone about things if everything started from scratch in a studio and I was able to track the musicians myself.
As said, if there's specific questions on how I did what, please ask. I think if I tried to explain in minute detail of everything done, you'd need several coffee breaks to deal with the overload. The good thing is that I think those who have done the Mix Clinic 1 song will appreciate the "problems" encountered - and just how much detail one could go into may be just a tad boring. The mix clinic was a great exercise for sure.
That's how I went about things and hope the above info helped in some way.
Naturally, I'll be back to edit my typos and errors.
Rab 8)
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Ok,
Here's another go, worked with some of the drums...smashed the crap out of them. Took Nicks advice on the eq of the guitars....still not happy they sound harsh compared to everything else to me....
Played with some different plug ins.....not sure if the drums are still too loud or not..but I'm liking the placement better....
let me have it
Tech wise, couldnt tell you everything except a little of this and a little of that......I'll take some time write it down when I look at the project again to morrow....been on this too long tonight already.
Brina
PS..I wanna know how to get the bass to sound like Dave's!!!!!!!!...
It looks like you have those crash cymbals ballanced with the rest of the kit - good.
At this point, the issues here are mostly with the level of the instruments. The mix is lacking bottom end, so it seems very weak. If I take your mix and increase the bass, already it starts to sound better. However, don't just crank up the bass. Start by making sure you're monitors are giving you the real deal. How do store bought CDs sound through your monitors? Lots of Bass?
Obviously, you have your ideas regarding the production - and thats cool. So the main thing is the sound of the mix. I think if you get more tuned in to the reference material, your mixes will become better ballanced. On the other hand, maybe I'm out to lunch on my critique. lol I wish I could be more help at this point.
Someone else have anything constructive for the lady?
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Pretty much what Cary just said, Brina.
One of the biggest problems with monitors is that many of them don't tell you the truth about your mix. Buying a particular brand of monitor because something sounds particularly good on them isn't a good idea. For example, a bass player could be under the impression their monitors are great because their bass sounds fantastic on them. Invariably, in this example, the bass player would end-up with a bass-light sound because the monitors were fooling him / her into the belief there was enough bass to begin with. This "example" is so common and this is the beginning of the slippery slope to experiencing mixing problems. You really do have to make sure your monitors are giving you the "Real Deal", and that can be assessed easily by playing good reference material and listening carefully. Your listening environment also plays a very big part in that equation and if you're struggling with a mix, try turning your monitors down a bit so that the reflected sound from your walls is minimised. Good mixes can be achieved without blowing the windows out.
Hope this helps a bit.
Rab 8)
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Thanks guys!!!!
I really appreciate that.
I was aware there was bass issues but just couldn't get it "pumping" the way I wanted....
first mix was muddy sounding because of it, been listening to some commercial stuff on the them last few days and think I'll take another run at the mix later tonight when things are quiet here.
I really really really wanna actually finish this mix and have it right, hence all the crappy ones I was throwing at Dave and everyone before...and the attempts now....
dunno sometimes I wonder if I'll ever get it right.
Brina
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Ok, I think I'm happy with this now. So I'll call it a final, but anything that you guys spot, I'd love to know about, so I can fix. A small point that bugs me is, about 1:52 seconds through, is a is a small ticking noise, just once, but enough to be annoying...
Ok, now for what I've done....
Ok first I listened to all the tracks, decided which ones I wanted to use, and when. I than faded them in and out to fit where I wanted. Once that was done, I panned everything, putting one guitar fill of to the far left, and another to the far right, I than panned the lead guitars, about 30 to the left, and the other about 30 to the right. I panned the backing vocals to 64 left 44 left and 32 left. I did the same to the right. I put the Bass guitar 15 to the left. The Piano I put 15 to the right. I put the acoustic rhythm 24 to the left and the electric rhythm 24 to the right. All the drums/percussion, lead vocals, strings and oohs, I left in the middle.
I than went through all the guitars, and cranked the Mid gain up, and dropped the highs gain and low gain a bit. I went to the vocals and upped the high gain, and dropped the mid gain and bass. I went to the bass, and upped the bass gain, upped the mid gain a bit, and dropped the high gain a bit. With the Kick drum I upped the bass gain, and the mid gain, and the high gain, not sure why... I just did... The Snare I left the bass gain as is, upped the mid gain, dropped the mid frequency, and left the high gain as is. The high hat I dropped High gain a fraction, dropped the mid frequency a fraction, upped the mid gain, and left the bass as is. I did nothing to the strings piano, or other percussion.
What else... Oh yes, I also cleaned up the lead guitar tracks. Cut out the bits which shouldn't have been there.
With the vocals I removed the volume dips that I had, and compressed it some more. I than added some reverd, and a tiny bit of echo. I also added some reverb on on the lead guitars, to even it out with the other. And some reverb to the bass.
I think that's about it... I can't think of anything else at the moment.. But I'll post it if I do..
I'd love to know what you guys think, 'cause this is like one of the first songs that I've mixed, so I really want to now where I went wrong etc.
Dan.
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I managed to get as far as downloading the RAR file.
How do I extract the seps?
Thanks!
Jeff
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You need a program called winrar (free download). When you unpack the rar file you will have all the ape files.
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Ok...Thanks.
Uhmmm....half the puzzle solved. Where can I get a safe link to the software?
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If you don't want to use winrar(I think it costs money to get the full version), I use this program... http://www.extractnow.com/ . It does alot of things, and is free and very easy to use 8).
Curtis
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Thanks Curtis!
Got it! 8)
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You also could have just dl'd the apes from the first few posts in this thread. :)
Have fun Jeff!
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I like the idea of grabbing it all in one chunk. Thanks for offering that. :)
I got most of the tracks in my working file. I haven't listened to any of the mixes..or read too much of this thread. So my mix is bound to suck.
Unfortunately, I'll have to hold here til I get my next little break. Picked up a new print client today. Of course, we're starting from scratch and have a tight deadline to tackle.
I'll be lurking.
Jeff
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I'm goinng to call this final because my 20G hard drive was full and I had over a gigs worth of mixes and tracks dedicated to this tune. It doesn't sparkle as much as I'd like it to (as it the clarity of the mix), but I did get something out of the clinic. I finally found a deesser that I can work with in the fish fillets from digitalfishphones. That was well wotrh the effort in itself.
I'll be lurking 8)
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Ok, I think I'm happy with this now. So I'll call it a final, but anything that you guys spot, I'd love to know about, so I can fix. A small point that bugs me is, about 1:52 seconds through, is a is a small ticking noise, just once, but enough to be annoying...
Ok, now for what I've done....
<snip>
Hi Dan - I just listened to your latest mix. Here's what struck me on first impression. Oh, and I'm going to be straight... don't take any of these comments as anything but helpful critique.
I believe the lead vocal is too loud. I would guess about 5db or so. I think I'm hearing some compression artifacts. Did you use a compressor on the lead vocal?
The mix is bass heavy.
I know you worked hard on this and that's great. I believe your putting time into things that aren't getting you big returns though. In my opinion, panning isn't that much of an issue. One could do a mix with all the instruments in the center and get it close.. This isn't a slam in any way, it's an observation about how many will think panning is super important. I personally don't believe that's true. Yes, panning does open the mix up, but I would say it's better to get the mix sounding good in mono and them work on the panning. Food for thought.
I see you did a lot of EQ to the parts. You found the parts were not good on their own? I know there are a few schools of thought on this. Some want to enhance the sound, some want to make 'space' for other instruments to get around masking. Some don't even think masking is an issue. Anyway, I'm wondering if you had stuff un-eq'd and later decided it didn't sound good. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just looking to get some dialog going.
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I'm goinng to call this final because my 20G hard drive was full and I had over a gigs worth of mixes and tracks dedicated to this tune. It doesn't sparkle as much as I'd like it to (as it the clarity of the mix), but I did get something out of the clinic. I finally found a deesser that I can work with in the fish fillets from digitalfishphones. That was well wotrh the effort in itself.
I'll be lurking 8)
Preston- Sorry it's taken so long for me to comment...
I would love to hear your mix without any sort of 'mastering'. I hear lots of pumping and I believe its in a attempt to get your mix loud.
(I'm hearing one of the guitar parts that is out of time. I'm feeling kinda bad about a lot of mixes that couldn't properly get the guitar synced. I really should have had that sorted before letting everyone have the tracks. True, most of the more experienced mixers knew how to get it lined up but it's not something we should have had to deal with in a mix clinic.)
The lead vocal is too loud on this and get's louder on certain parts. Did you do some automation in certain areas?
I'd really like to help you get this better. If you'd be willing to do some work and take direction, perhaps some good can come from it. On the other hand, we can just go on to the next clinic which I will make sure is very few tracks and will focus on sound quality.
8)
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I'd really like to help you get this better. If you'd be willing to do some work and take direction, perhaps some good can come from it. On the other hand, we can just go on to the next clinic which I will make sure is very few tracks and will focus on sound quality.
Cary,
Thank you for your comments and your offer. 8)
As I remember the lead vocal was the only track that had no volume panning on it. I did use a soft knee compression that was built into the track EQ rack in n-track. The plug ins were SPITFISH & a Sony delay set very short. I normally would have used the Classic Master Limiter you showed me but that really stepped up the pumping that you mentioned so I just got the track as loud as I could with no master effects.
I have deleted the entire folder for disk space so I would rather move to the next project. Also I'm burnt out on this tune. How do you deal with the burn out issue as a pro? Any tips there?
Thanks again for running the clinic and all your time. :)
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Ok, I think I'm happy with this now. So I'll call it a final, but anything that you guys spot, I'd love to know about, so I can fix. A small point that bugs me is, about 1:52 seconds through, is a is a small ticking noise, just once, but enough to be annoying...
Ok, now for what I've done....
<snip>
Hi Dan - I just listened to your latest mix. Here's what struck me on first impression. Oh, and I'm going to be straight... don't take any of these comments as anything but helpful critique.
I believe the lead vocal is too loud. I would guess about 5db or so. I think I'm hearing some compression artifacts. Did you use a compressor on the lead vocal?
The mix is bass heavy.
I know you worked hard on this and that's great. I believe your putting time into things that aren't getting you big returns though. In my opinion, panning isn't that much of an issue. One could do a mix with all the instruments in the center and get it close.. This isn't a slam in any way, it's an observation about how many will think panning is super important. I personally don't believe that's true. Yes, panning does open the mix up, but I would say it's better to get the mix sounding good in mono and them work on the panning. Food for thought.
I see you did a lot of EQ to the parts. You found the parts were not good on their own? I know there are a few schools of thought on this. Some want to enhance the sound, some want to make 'space' for other instruments to get around masking. Some don't even think masking is an issue. Anyway, I'm wondering if you had stuff un-eq'd and later decided it didn't sound good. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just looking to get some dialog going.
Hey, sorry I've taken awhile to reply.. Didn't see that anyone posted here.
That's awesome, just what I wanted to know. I didn't spend that long panning, I actually haven't touched it much for awhile. It just takes a while to list the panned settings for 29 odd tracks :P
Vocals to load now. Good. At last, now I can turn them down again, and drop some of the compression. And do loads of stuff to it all.
The EQing, was mainly to set the guitars at the mid, the vocals on the highs, and bass, drums etc on the lows. 'Cause I think they sit better like that, each in it's own area sort of thing. That was the plan anyway.
Bass to loud, yup. I can see why. I've not had a listen to it on another speaker set up, mainly 'cause I don't really have another to listen to it on. And my head phones aren't bass heavy, so I guess I went for good bass on them :P I'll listen to some other bands stuff, and compare the bass levels and sort that out.
Thanks for that. Now I've got something to work on again... Now to find the time, with work started up again..
Cheers, Dan.
P.S. It's great that someone will give me a straight answer, with out trying to soften it up...
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Firstly, this is a nice, catchy song. My compliments to Ray and whomever else contributed. Sorry if I missed the obvious... I probably skimmed right over the credits.
Alrighty, here is my thought process....
I feel the song should be performed with just a few basics components. A good song won't need anything more than that.
I stripped it down, so the song could be performed easily, anywhere, at anytime by 3 band members. I'd stick a tambourine in the drummer's hand. He'd chill til the start of the 2nd verse. I'd also slice the tune down to 3-1/2 mins.
I don't know how to use AutoTune or any corrective plugins. So I only used the default Compress in Ray's lead, and Default EQ on the entire mix...and faded the end.
Jeff
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Jeff-
Cool. The unplugged mix :)
The lead vocal was a touch too loud (for me) but overall I thought you had a good idea. Strip it down. 8)
Using this approach, perhaps editing it down to 3 and a half minutes would work too.
Cool man.. thanks for playing
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I figured it would be a unique approach. Not sure if anyone else went that route.
Now I need to learn how to make it sound pretty. ;)
Jeff
EDIT: Is the BPM listed anywhere?? I couldn't find it.
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I figured it would be a unique approach. Not sure if anyone else went that route.
Now I need to learn how to make it sound pretty. ;)
Jeff
EDIT: Is the BPM listed anywhere?? I couldn't find it.
I do believe the BPM is 80, from what I could work out..
Dan.