Musicians Collaboration Studio
How To => Production Tips and Tricks! => Topic started by: Argle on May 03, 2012, 08:44:59 AM
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This is question for everyone, musicians and mix people. When you do a mix or requisition one, do you shoot for a particular overall loudness?
The reason I ask is I always worry if a) my product isn't loud enough, and b) my product is too loud.
What are your thoughts on loudness?
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I always go for a specific loudness on my playback amp at volume setting 9 (which is only relevant to me as a reference). Once it sounds loud enough (and more importantly still doesn't clip) at that setting then for me it's loud enough. It's the old loudness wars thing again where louder is perceived by most as better. Dynamic range is usually the big loser.
Do I "worry" if it doesn't sound loud enough? Yes... although I'm not sure why
Do I "worry" if it's too loud? No, as long as it still sounds clear
Is this question part of a course you're doing Adam? Sounds like the sort of question I might have asked a year or two ago during my studies.
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Is this question part of a course you're doing Adam? Sounds like the sort of question I might have asked a year or two ago during my studies.
Nope, just personal curiosity. It's something I frequently ponder about my own material.
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Total Loud is between - 8 and -10 RMS
I shoot between -10 and -14 RMS
Very good dynamics is between -14 and -16 RMS
Here is a good blog:
http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/2008/10/diy-mastering-part-5-how-loud-is-too.html
Nick
Here are some examples from the blog:
-8.6 (-6.2) Oasis - "Some Might Say": Severe clipping distortion
-8.9 (-4.9) Metallica - "TDTNC" (CD): Massive distortion & clipping
-10.4 (-7.7) Feeder - "Pushing The Senses": Heavy clipping distortion
-12.7 (-7.7) Metallica - "BB&S" (Mystery Mix): Slight source clipping
-14.0 (-10) Katatonia - "Consternation": Awesome (clean) sound, massive choruses
-15.3 (-13.1) Sugar - "Fortune Teller": From 1993
-21.8 (-16.9) Metallica - "TDTNC" (GH3) Needs to be louder !
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Quite a complex subject, I wouldn't say I shoot for any particular RMS figure.
Actual RMS and perceived loudness are two different things in any case, spectral balance can make things sound louder even though it may not actually be measurably different from another song with the same RMS.
I just try and mix the song as best I can with plenty of headroom, bounce it down without any or perhaps a small amount of 2buss mix glue....then I can play with the loudness afterwards with some mastering plugins. I'm finding that different songs react quite differently, some will sound good at -8 , others will sound wrecked even at -10 or -11. Once I've finished I put it through the TT Loudness meter...if it comes up with less than -10 then I have a rest and go back to see if I can increase the dynamic range...most stuff I mix seems to come out between -13 to -10.
One thing I find useful is on Slate FGX is the 'Constant Gain Monitoring' button , which keeps the music at the same level , even in bypass. So you can check if it's really helping or you're just being fooled by the boost in level.
I have noticed this little Mixcube I got recently gets you to focus on the critical midrange, and if you can get it right on it then it actually does sound subjectively louder than if you'd scooped out the mids and made the mix too smooth, which I have a tendency to do ::)
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Rip a song from your favorite CD...compare loudness to your song.
Thats what Ive been doing lately although most of my CD's are from the 80's.
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Rip a song from your favorite CD...compare loudness to your song.
Thats what Ive been doing lately although most of my CD's are from the 80's.
Don't try it with a recent CD , most of them are ultra compressed :o
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LOUD
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Charles Dye and guys like that are against the loudness wars and so am I...I dont want the mixes or music shouting at me.
Most mixes that are overcompressed and to loud I turn off pretty quickly theses days...which is a lot of mixes.
I listen to old school stuff because it sounds warmer and the mixes for the most part were better and more interesting.
I have a lot of remastered CD's of older bands from 50's 60's and 70's...digitally remastered to CD...I use them a lot as references.
Im going for a warm brown sound in regards to mixing...you feel the music...not just hear it.
Loud overcompressed mixes are harsh on the ear...not good.
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Actually I like LOUD, but still with dynamics.
Whitesnakes albums are an inetresting exanple; they moved from dynamic (Moody and Marsden on guitar) then fairly compressed (Sykes or Vai on guitar), to unpleasantly over-compressed (Aldrich and Beach on guitar).
This also matched a descent from excellent in 1978 to un-listenable in 2009+.
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I just turn everything up to 11
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Charles Dye and guys like that are against the loudness wars and so am I...I dont want the mixes or music shouting at me.
He also admits to contributing to it :o
At least he saw the error of his ways
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I just turn everything up to 11
>:D >:D >:D
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My amp goes up to 12.
Everyone and their dog has one going up to 11 these days.
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I hate loud music. Everything below a dynamic range of roundabout 10 dB is critical IMO. Some (very few) songs work at DR9, but less than that is always very unpleasant and exhausting for my ears.
I've made the mistake to buy a couple of CDs from Amazon without paying attention to the note that said "remastered". ALL those CDs are completely unlistenable. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to buy any acceptable music from Amazon nowadays because EVERYTHING gets (re)mastered to death. One of the rare exceptions is the "Original Albums" series.
Good rock or pop music needs not be squashed like hell. I just mixed the "All Right Now" cover by Mick, Andy, Parry and Basil, and my master has a dynamic range of 12 dB. The original song has DR14! That's a good loudness that you can listen to for hours without overburdening your ears.
Regards,
Steffen
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There's always a knob on your Hi-fi system to be turned down or up, if it's to loud or to low...
Got no clue, just look at the the stress in the waves maximizer plugin and at the same time listen if it there's any stress in my ears... usually the bass and kick gets affected, to my ears, if I'm pushing too much the limiter.
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One other thing that makes me scratch my head, these days, is the debate about listening in mono... Who on earth listens in mono these days? I'm not going to compromise a stereo mix because it sounds bad in mono, I don't listen to mono stuff for ages.
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Actually, listening to music with a high dynamic range is more exhausting than listening to music with a low dynamic range... the changes are quite hard for the brain and it makes you more tired than listening to an over compressed modern day song... music fatigue ....
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One other thing that makes me scratch my head, these days, is the debate about listening in mono... Who on earth listens in mono these days? I'm not going to compromise a stereo mix because it sounds bad in mono, I don't listen to mono stuff for ages.
You probably listen to more mono than you think
Everytime you go out somewhere that plays 'piped' music like in a department store or shopping centre , plenty of mono TV's still out there, radios in cars, phones , ipods etc will switch to mono if it has a less than ideal signal. My little Sony DAB Radio in my kitchen is mono anyway.
Many folk won't place stereo speakers properly in a domestic situation - you'll probably find one behind the sofa and another across the room mounted on a wall ;D
Nobody sits in the sweet spot either :o So all that careful panning probably won't make as much sense outside of the ideal listening position.
The reason to mono check is also to eliminate mistakes. The mono balance will be different for sure but if you've panned an important part opposite sides and the phase relationship means it cancels itself out then you'll get a huge level drop or maybe not even hear it at all. Imagine it comes on the radio and the wide panned rhythm guitars are not there ?
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Mark is right. You listen to mono all the time. A mix that is not mono-compatible will break in most every-day scenarios.
Actually, listening to music with a high dynamic range is more exhausting than listening to music with a low dynamic range... the changes are quite hard for the brain and it makes you more tired than listening to an over compressed modern day song... music fatigue ....
That would only be possible if all of the following was true:
a) The dynamic differences are extreme.
b) The changes are in a fast sequence.
c) The sounds are completely unrelated.
So we are talking about a very specific kind of noise here.
None of the above is ever true in music though, where all sounds are always clearly related and dynamic changes build slowly. In music low dynamic range is always exhausting to the ear. You can listen to an old Pink Floyd recording the whole day long, while an over-compressed Amy McDonalds song tires your ears out within seconds.
Regards,
Steffen
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Yeh, maybe you're right, I did not think of it that way... I listen to music at home most of the times and it's stereo, lol.
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One other thing that makes me scratch my head, these days, is the debate about listening in mono... Who on earth listens in mono these days? I'm not going to compromise a stereo mix because it sounds bad in mono, I don't listen to mono stuff for ages.
You probably listen to more mono than you think
Everytime you go out somewhere that plays 'piped' music like in a department store or shopping centre , plenty of mono TV's still out there, radios in cars, phones , ipods etc will switch to mono if it has a less than ideal signal. My little Sony DAB Radio in my kitchen is mono anyway.
Many folk won't place stereo speakers properly in a domestic situation - you'll probably find one behind the sofa and another across the room mounted on a wall ;D
Nobody sits in the sweet spot either :o So all that careful panning probably won't make as much sense outside of the ideal listening position.
The reason to mono check is also to eliminate mistakes. The mono balance will be different for sure but if you've panned an important part opposite sides and the phase relationship means it cancels itself out then you'll get a huge level drop or maybe not even hear it at all. Imagine it comes on the radio and the wide panned rhythm guitars are not there ?
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I have to third all of this too!
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Headphones and mono probably account for the way 95% of people will listen to your stuff. I should probably start checking my stuff in those. lol
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Headphones and mono probably account for the way 95% of people will listen to your stuff. I should probably start checking my stuff in those. lol
True, and you can hear things on headphones that you don't always hear on the speakers..especially little clicks, pops, or mic handing noise etc.
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