Musicians Collaboration Studio

44.1 kHz vs 48 kHz

jeff · 21 · 10203
 

Offline Gerk

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As I said it's a topic that you'll get a wide variety of answers to, and everyone typically has a strong opinion of their own solution!

I had a big, long winded explanation of how downsampling algorithms worked, but decided to not include it as to further complicate things.  I'm a math geek, and somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to music ;)  I try to even avoid using lots of plugins, etc when I can get away without them.  One comment I will make about the graphics vs audio reference Tacman ... is that you're right, they are different things altogether.  Audio is _way_ more complicated and contains a lot more data than graphics do! :D 

For me I'd rather not require something to guess at what I recorded in the first place.  I'd much rather have it output _exactly_ what I recorded without anything in the process messing with it after I've done all the hard work to get my mix sounding exactly the way I want it.

Mark


Offline CosmicDolphin

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For me I'd rather not require something to guess at what I recorded in the first place.  I'd much rather have it output _exactly_ what I recorded without anything in the process messing with it

You don't like analogue gear then ??

CD
We never finish a mix... we simply abandon them.
You can't polish a turd, but you can always spray paint it GOLD
Great songs are not written, they are re-witten


Offline Gerk

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For me I'd rather not require something to guess at what I recorded in the first place.  I'd much rather have it output _exactly_ what I recorded without anything in the process messing with it

You don't like analogue gear then ??

CD

To be honest, not particularly -- at least not the analog gear that I could afford to own and operate!

Also I'm not talking about capture to playback here, I'm talking about playback/mix to final product (which was always a bit of a crap shoot with analog too depending on what you were mixing down to and how hard you "hit" it) :D  Hitting an analog 2 track deck with another 0.5db could make a huge difference in the actual tonality of the final mix -- which you wouldn't hear until you played it back.  In digital land, provided you have the headroom it's (mostly) just a half db louder. :)

Mark
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 02:04:48 PM by Gerk »


Offline Tacman7

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I used to have a lot of outboard gear but got rid of everything except one processor. The workflow/routing is so nice with everything in the computer.
That and I can add the outboard processor to 1 track where I can put plug ins all over the place. And I have to render outboard track down when I get it to do what I want where plugins can just be left till mixdown-usually.

This makes me think about the converter discussion. Some say there isn't that much difference when you get a decent mid priced converter like motu, RME, etc. and the high end models...

The thing that occurred to me when looking at getting a new card a while back is the DA converter. Having really good DA conversion would make it really nice to monitor your recordings but wouldn't add anything to your final product because it stays entirely in the digital domain.
Maybe I could make better recordings because of my ability to hear the music better? Unless you run it out and back into your really fancy converters or something.

Kind of put my shopping on hold. Wait for newer, better, Cheaper!



Offline meekofnature

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Ok, here's my 2 cents on the whole sample rate debacle. 

For purposes of this website I agree, keep everything at 44.1 (and possibly 24 bit till mixdown...but no higher due to some DAW's not supporting floating point).  Having a standard here would be a good thing, to avoid multiple conversions as files are passed around...plus what Gerk said.  If you stay at 44.1 at least you know that what you're hearing all the way along should translate directly into the final product without many anomalies. 

The whole idea that working at 88.2 then being able to downsample to 44.1 for cleaner math is bunk.  It's a complicated algorithm in any conversion..and a far cry from /2. 

There is some legit math behind the cymbal frequency thing Thunder posted, if you're bored google the Nyquist Theorm and why 44.1 was chosen as the standard for CD's and that should shed some light. 

As far as major studios go, almost none of them work at 44.1.  I see far more work being done at 48, 88.2 and 96 than 44.1.  I almost never see 44.1.  Most of the guys I've seen working at 88.2 are under the false assumption that the math is cleaner (which like I said, is bull).  The biggest difference I can see is this.  The major labels/studio projects are all sent to A list mastering houses that want the higher fidelity so that they can work on preserving as much of that as possible in the final product (insert the usefulness for fancy converters here for those who hit analog in the mastering realm).  The idea is that highly qualified professionals with ultimate top notch gear can make a 96k session converted to 44.1 sound better than if it was 44.1 all along.  I've got Bob Katz's book, and I've read it and I'm aware of what would differ from the words in that book and what I'm saying.  I'm just observing what I see on a day to day basis as a person who spends nearly every day in a professional recording studio.  Funny thing is, we're all scratching our heads and wondering why so much effort is put forth to cram it onto a crappy mp3 for ipod...which strangely coincides with how many of the greatest recording studios in the world are being closed and sold off for condos, real estate..etc.

In any case, I feel safe to say none of us would benefit in any measurable way by working above 44.1 here...so keep it simple and keep it 44.1. 

-Marc



Offline luisma1972

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Funny thing is, we're all scratching our heads and wondering why so much effort is put forth to cram it onto a crappy mp3 for ipod...which strangely coincides with how many of the greatest recording studios in the world are being closed and sold off for condos, real estate..etc.

In any case, I feel safe to say none of us would benefit in any measurable way by working above 44.1 here...so keep it simple and keep it 44.1. 

-Marc



I think you already answered that with your closing line. 

44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, downsampling algorithms, rendering, intersample clipping, jitter, Nyquist Theorem, resistor thermal noise, slew rates, damping factor ........................................... and any other term you may want to insert here. >:D
 
Nowdays for most of us (grown up adults) , almost none of those terms really afect the quality of our recordings, except for bit depth ( and this is only if you do lots of post processing). Marketing experts just need to create needs on our side to keep us buying new toys ;)

Even if we can afford a high quality recording enviroment, acoustically speaking, the differences between "mid-priced" gear are so subtle that we can't really tell the diference (except for the placebo effect ;) as already stated). And most of us can't really hear above 16Khz (grown up adults).

I'm only speaking about "transparent" audio, I mean, no extra coloration added in the audio process (excluding enviroment and speakers). I think the differences perceved between mid priced and hi end pro equipment are "inserted" on purpose  by the "high end" brands

this story about Bob Carver always comes to my mind when discussing this subject

Quote
Carver caused a stir in the industry in the mid-1980s when he challenged two high-end audio magazines to give him any audio amplifier at any price, and he'd duplicate its sound in one of his lower cost (and usually much more powerful) designs. Two magazines took him up on the challenge.

First, The Audio Critic chose a Mark Levinson ML-2 which Bob acoustically copied (transfer function duplication) and sold as his M1.5t amplifier (the "t" stood for transfer function modified).

In 1985, Stereophile magazine challenged Bob to copy a Conrad-Johnson Premier Five (the make and model was not named in the challenge but revealed later) amplifier at their offices in New Mexico within 48 hours. The Conrad Johnson amplifier was one of the most highly regarded amplifiers of its day, costing in excess of $12,000.

Of note that in both cases, the challenging amplifier could only be treated as a "black box" and could not even have its lid removed. Nevertheless, Carver, using null difference testing, successfully copied the sound of the target amplifier and won the challenge. The Stereophile employees failed to pass a single blind test with their own equipment, and in their own listening room. He marketed "t" versions of his amplifiers incorporating the sound of the Mark Levinson and Conrad Johnson designs which caused him some criticism by those who failed to understand the true nature of the challenge -- that it was possible to duplicate an audio amplifier's sound in two completely dissimilar designs. In light of this criticism, Bob Carver went on to design the Silver Seven, the most expensive and esoteric conventional amplifier up to that time and duplicated its sound in his M 4.0t and later models which sold for some 1/40th the price (around $600-$1500).

transfer functions, convolution, psychoaoustics, mp3s... oops not again  ;D

This story is very very interesting because this was done back in 1985 and today we are centuries ahead regarding technology and audio processing. The only factor that remains the same is human subjectivity  :D

All this just to agree with Marc and Mark: Keep it simple, keep it 44.1 unless it's intended for video.

Sorry for the lengthy post but I'm a tech geek   >:D
Luis Manuel Aguilar


 

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