Dealing with multiple Time Signatures and Tempos for a collab ?

[AzureCrystal]

Hi everyone and thanks in advance for any help or insights you may have !!!

I write a lot of progressive rock pieces that have multiple time sigs and multiple tempos in one Cubase project, for myself it is very easy to export and import midi files as they will retain the time sigs and tempos, BUT I find it is a killer to do collabs because not everyone can or will track from the original midi bed, and they shouldn't have too !! 

In your opinion, what is the best way to deal with collabs that have these, do I just make one project with a prefixed audio click after I import the one rendered bed audio done form the original midi bed, so no one has to worry about the time sig or tempo, osr should everyone be forced to track against the original midi file which would include time sig and tempo maps ??

The reason I am asking is that for me, if I track with the original midi file, I like the ability to SNAP my clips to bars & beats and it is easier for me to cut and paste that way, but if I just import an audio bed into a general project without regards to tempo or time sig, I lose that ability, which slows me down... any ideas

[Gerk]

That's a tough one ... I'd say ask the collaborator what their preferences is .. I'd lean towards a single track with the click provided, but others might not (drummers for example might want them separated -- it can be pretty hard to switch gears and/or punch in for drums depending on the song in question)

[AzureCrystal]

Exactly, stops and starts into a new time sig are the hardest and cause a lot of headaches, I think you are right about separate tracks, maybe drummers know something we don't !!

Even when people track to the original tempo and time sig mapped audio project, it is a royal PITA for everyone to follow the changes, I agree, just one leader click audio in a new project, or each time sig on a new project....  Bottom line I think Prog can be a pain for this type of collabing overall, our type of collabing on MC likes a single tempo, single time sig, and less than 6 minutes length; anything out of that box becomes very hard to track to and mix...

That's a tough one ... I'd say ask the collaborator what their preferences is .. I'd lean towards a single track with the click provided, but others might not (drummers for example might want them separated -- it can be pretty hard to switch gears and/or punch in for drums depending on the song in question)

[Gerk]

Tracking prog drums can be an artform in itself ... when I track prog drum tracks I have a special template that i built for it.  There are 3 full sets of drum tracks in it, with all tracks for each mic (i.e. kick, snare, etc) all coming down into it's own submix.  I do all the EQ, etc on the submix instead of each of the actual tracks.  Then I can have up to 3 layers of drums at any given time.  This allows for the ability to just stop at the end of a section (like at a time change or a beat change) and let the cymbals ring out, etc.  When you go back and punch in the tracks for the next part you do it on the next set of tracks, and so on.

I used to do it with 2 sets, but having 3 sets affords more freedoms ... for example you can use the third for some simple overdubs (like a percussion part, a second hi-hat/ride part, etc), or when there's really tricky little bits that that you want to punch in small snippets stand-alone, so sometimes you need 3 overlaps.

That makes things complicated, but it's super flexible.  36 tracks + 12 subs just for drums LOL.  Gotta love prog

[Paulo]

You could export a midi file the same size as the audio file... First the collaborator imports the midi files and I think most of the DAW wil respect the tempo/signature changes on that midi track.
Then the collaborator imports the audio track aligned with the midi track and it should work, I guess.

[AzureCrystal]

Yes, I've done that in the past, but for some reason what I get back 99% of the time was tracked on a single tempo, single time sig project on their end, my only guess is that the person gets the midi file, doesn't import it properly, and they lose the tempo map and time sigs, my next try will be to divide songs into time sig projects to see if that helps !!!

You could export a midi file the same size as the audio file... First the collaborator imports the midi files and I think most of the DAW wil respect the tempo/signature changes on that midi track.
Then the collaborator imports the audio track aligned with the midi track and it should work, I guess.

[Gerk]

Different DAW software handles tempo changes radically different, which is likely the issue.  If they start a new project, then import the midi, a lot of times it won't do the tempo changes unless they manually go in and find the right spots and add the tempo changes.  If they are able to "double click" the midi file and have it open in their DAW it might be smart enough to be able to map the tempo changes ... but again it can be hit and miss.  My DAW of choice runs a separate track (a conductor track) to deal with temp and time changes, so it wouldn't work for me that way.

The best bet is if you are going to provide a single track (as opposed to mapped out sections) would be to export an audio version of the midi track(s) and provide an audio version of the click that lines up to it to go with it.  Not the best way as they wouldn't be able to line-up their project time signature/tempo wise if they wanted to use things like quantizing, etc ... but you might get better results back.  The downside is that they would have to use your provided click only and wouldn't be able to substitute in their own click choices  (I'm particular about what to use for a click, but I'm a fussy old bastard LOL)

All around it's tough to track prog stuff like this!  I think that separate sections would be the easiest way to distribute and collect again (but tougher on the person who has all the master project for re-assembling it).

[AzureCrystal]

hi Gerk, checking out your band YouTubes, pretty tight  band !! But where is the keyboard player A song like "I Wish" is screaming for keys !!!

[AzureCrystal]

What DAW do you use ? I switch between Cubase SE and Reaper, Reaper is more powerful, but I am faster with midi in Cubase SE.. I try to render in Reaper as the tracks seem to render with much better quality....

My DAW of choice runs a separate track (a conductor track) to deal with temp and time changes, so it wouldn't work for me that way.

[Gerk]

hehe thanks, no keyboard player.  Hard enough to get paid as a 3 piece let alone 4 piece.

I use Digital Performer (on OSX).

[AzureCrystal]

No, say it ain't true Gerk, you are playing Allman Brothers material with no keyboard player, blasphemous almost !! Looking at your song list, hehehe.....

hehe thanks, no keyboard player.  Hard enough to get paid as a 3 piece let alone 4 piece.

I use Digital Performer (on OSX).

[Gerk]

We play Genesis - Turn it on Again and Led Zepp's - Fool in the Rain with no keyboards!   The guitarist does a really good job of playing the parts actually.  I really don't know how he can do those while singing ... it's pretty impressive.